Identically distributed vs P(X > Y) = P(Y > X)












3














I've two related propositions which seem correct intuitively, but I struggle to prove them properly.



Question 1



Prove or disprove: If $X$ and $Y$ are independent and identically distributed, then $mathbb{P} (Y > X) = mathbb{P} (X > Y) = 1/2$



Due to independence, the joint PDF of $X$ and $Y$ is the product of their marginal PDF:



$$ begin{align}
mathbb{P} (Y > X) &= int_{-infty}^infty int_x^infty p(x) , p(y) , dy , dx \
mathbb{P} (X > Y) &= int_{-infty}^infty int_y^infty p(x) , p(y) , dx , dy
= int_{-infty}^infty int_x^infty p(y) , p(x) , dy , dx
end{align} $$



The last step is based on the fact that the integral won't change if we simply rename the integration parameters $x$ and $y$ consistently. So we have shown that $mathbb{P} (Y > X) = mathbb{P} (X > Y)$



Side note: Even if $X$ and $Y$ are dependent, this result still holds so long as their joint PDF is exchangeable i.e. $p(x, y) = p(y, x)$





Let $u = y - x$ so that



$$ mathbb{P} (Y > X) = int_{-infty}^infty int_0^infty p(x) , p(u + x) , du , dx $$



I thought of applying Fubini's theorem but it doesn't help to show that it's equal to 1/2, so maybe it's not 1/2?



Alternatively, consider that



$$ mathbb{P} (Y > X) + mathbb{P} (X > Y) + mathbb{P} (Y = X) = 1 $$



If we assume that $mathbb{P} (Y = X) = 0$ then we can conclude that $mathbb{P} (Y > X) = 1/2$. But is this assumption justified?



Question 2



Prove or disprove: If $X$ and $Y$ are independent and $mathbb{P} (Y > X) = mathbb{P} (X > Y)$, then they are identically distributed.



If this is true, then is it still true if $X$ and $Y$ are dependent?










share|cite|improve this question
























  • One interesting technical point is that if the probability of $X=c$ is $0$ for every value of $c,$ that's not enough to entail that probabilities are given by integrating a density function. The standard counterexample is the Cantor distribution. But more to the point$,ldotsqquad$
    – Michael Hardy
    6 hours ago










  • $ldots,$is that I probably wouldn't solve this problem by considering such integrals anyway.
    – Michael Hardy
    6 hours ago
















3














I've two related propositions which seem correct intuitively, but I struggle to prove them properly.



Question 1



Prove or disprove: If $X$ and $Y$ are independent and identically distributed, then $mathbb{P} (Y > X) = mathbb{P} (X > Y) = 1/2$



Due to independence, the joint PDF of $X$ and $Y$ is the product of their marginal PDF:



$$ begin{align}
mathbb{P} (Y > X) &= int_{-infty}^infty int_x^infty p(x) , p(y) , dy , dx \
mathbb{P} (X > Y) &= int_{-infty}^infty int_y^infty p(x) , p(y) , dx , dy
= int_{-infty}^infty int_x^infty p(y) , p(x) , dy , dx
end{align} $$



The last step is based on the fact that the integral won't change if we simply rename the integration parameters $x$ and $y$ consistently. So we have shown that $mathbb{P} (Y > X) = mathbb{P} (X > Y)$



Side note: Even if $X$ and $Y$ are dependent, this result still holds so long as their joint PDF is exchangeable i.e. $p(x, y) = p(y, x)$





Let $u = y - x$ so that



$$ mathbb{P} (Y > X) = int_{-infty}^infty int_0^infty p(x) , p(u + x) , du , dx $$



I thought of applying Fubini's theorem but it doesn't help to show that it's equal to 1/2, so maybe it's not 1/2?



Alternatively, consider that



$$ mathbb{P} (Y > X) + mathbb{P} (X > Y) + mathbb{P} (Y = X) = 1 $$



If we assume that $mathbb{P} (Y = X) = 0$ then we can conclude that $mathbb{P} (Y > X) = 1/2$. But is this assumption justified?



Question 2



Prove or disprove: If $X$ and $Y$ are independent and $mathbb{P} (Y > X) = mathbb{P} (X > Y)$, then they are identically distributed.



If this is true, then is it still true if $X$ and $Y$ are dependent?










share|cite|improve this question
























  • One interesting technical point is that if the probability of $X=c$ is $0$ for every value of $c,$ that's not enough to entail that probabilities are given by integrating a density function. The standard counterexample is the Cantor distribution. But more to the point$,ldotsqquad$
    – Michael Hardy
    6 hours ago










  • $ldots,$is that I probably wouldn't solve this problem by considering such integrals anyway.
    – Michael Hardy
    6 hours ago














3












3








3


1





I've two related propositions which seem correct intuitively, but I struggle to prove them properly.



Question 1



Prove or disprove: If $X$ and $Y$ are independent and identically distributed, then $mathbb{P} (Y > X) = mathbb{P} (X > Y) = 1/2$



Due to independence, the joint PDF of $X$ and $Y$ is the product of their marginal PDF:



$$ begin{align}
mathbb{P} (Y > X) &= int_{-infty}^infty int_x^infty p(x) , p(y) , dy , dx \
mathbb{P} (X > Y) &= int_{-infty}^infty int_y^infty p(x) , p(y) , dx , dy
= int_{-infty}^infty int_x^infty p(y) , p(x) , dy , dx
end{align} $$



The last step is based on the fact that the integral won't change if we simply rename the integration parameters $x$ and $y$ consistently. So we have shown that $mathbb{P} (Y > X) = mathbb{P} (X > Y)$



Side note: Even if $X$ and $Y$ are dependent, this result still holds so long as their joint PDF is exchangeable i.e. $p(x, y) = p(y, x)$





Let $u = y - x$ so that



$$ mathbb{P} (Y > X) = int_{-infty}^infty int_0^infty p(x) , p(u + x) , du , dx $$



I thought of applying Fubini's theorem but it doesn't help to show that it's equal to 1/2, so maybe it's not 1/2?



Alternatively, consider that



$$ mathbb{P} (Y > X) + mathbb{P} (X > Y) + mathbb{P} (Y = X) = 1 $$



If we assume that $mathbb{P} (Y = X) = 0$ then we can conclude that $mathbb{P} (Y > X) = 1/2$. But is this assumption justified?



Question 2



Prove or disprove: If $X$ and $Y$ are independent and $mathbb{P} (Y > X) = mathbb{P} (X > Y)$, then they are identically distributed.



If this is true, then is it still true if $X$ and $Y$ are dependent?










share|cite|improve this question















I've two related propositions which seem correct intuitively, but I struggle to prove them properly.



Question 1



Prove or disprove: If $X$ and $Y$ are independent and identically distributed, then $mathbb{P} (Y > X) = mathbb{P} (X > Y) = 1/2$



Due to independence, the joint PDF of $X$ and $Y$ is the product of their marginal PDF:



$$ begin{align}
mathbb{P} (Y > X) &= int_{-infty}^infty int_x^infty p(x) , p(y) , dy , dx \
mathbb{P} (X > Y) &= int_{-infty}^infty int_y^infty p(x) , p(y) , dx , dy
= int_{-infty}^infty int_x^infty p(y) , p(x) , dy , dx
end{align} $$



The last step is based on the fact that the integral won't change if we simply rename the integration parameters $x$ and $y$ consistently. So we have shown that $mathbb{P} (Y > X) = mathbb{P} (X > Y)$



Side note: Even if $X$ and $Y$ are dependent, this result still holds so long as their joint PDF is exchangeable i.e. $p(x, y) = p(y, x)$





Let $u = y - x$ so that



$$ mathbb{P} (Y > X) = int_{-infty}^infty int_0^infty p(x) , p(u + x) , du , dx $$



I thought of applying Fubini's theorem but it doesn't help to show that it's equal to 1/2, so maybe it's not 1/2?



Alternatively, consider that



$$ mathbb{P} (Y > X) + mathbb{P} (X > Y) + mathbb{P} (Y = X) = 1 $$



If we assume that $mathbb{P} (Y = X) = 0$ then we can conclude that $mathbb{P} (Y > X) = 1/2$. But is this assumption justified?



Question 2



Prove or disprove: If $X$ and $Y$ are independent and $mathbb{P} (Y > X) = mathbb{P} (X > Y)$, then they are identically distributed.



If this is true, then is it still true if $X$ and $Y$ are dependent?







joint-distribution iid symmetry






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edited 1 hour ago

























asked 6 hours ago









farmer

566




566












  • One interesting technical point is that if the probability of $X=c$ is $0$ for every value of $c,$ that's not enough to entail that probabilities are given by integrating a density function. The standard counterexample is the Cantor distribution. But more to the point$,ldotsqquad$
    – Michael Hardy
    6 hours ago










  • $ldots,$is that I probably wouldn't solve this problem by considering such integrals anyway.
    – Michael Hardy
    6 hours ago


















  • One interesting technical point is that if the probability of $X=c$ is $0$ for every value of $c,$ that's not enough to entail that probabilities are given by integrating a density function. The standard counterexample is the Cantor distribution. But more to the point$,ldotsqquad$
    – Michael Hardy
    6 hours ago










  • $ldots,$is that I probably wouldn't solve this problem by considering such integrals anyway.
    – Michael Hardy
    6 hours ago
















One interesting technical point is that if the probability of $X=c$ is $0$ for every value of $c,$ that's not enough to entail that probabilities are given by integrating a density function. The standard counterexample is the Cantor distribution. But more to the point$,ldotsqquad$
– Michael Hardy
6 hours ago




One interesting technical point is that if the probability of $X=c$ is $0$ for every value of $c,$ that's not enough to entail that probabilities are given by integrating a density function. The standard counterexample is the Cantor distribution. But more to the point$,ldotsqquad$
– Michael Hardy
6 hours ago












$ldots,$is that I probably wouldn't solve this problem by considering such integrals anyway.
– Michael Hardy
6 hours ago




$ldots,$is that I probably wouldn't solve this problem by considering such integrals anyway.
– Michael Hardy
6 hours ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















2














Question 1: I assume you mean to ask whether$$mathbb{P}(X<Y)=mathbb{P}(Y<X)tag{1}$$because, the way the question is written$$mathbb{P}(X<Y)=mathbb{P}(Y>X)tag{2}$$is always true since $X<Y$ and $Y>X$ are the same events. Considering (1), it is sufficient that $X$ and $Y$ are exchangeable, that is, that $(X,Y)$ and $(Y,X)$ have the same joint distribution for (1) to hold. And obviously
$$mathbb{P}(X<Y)=mathbb{P}(Y<X)=1/2$$since they sum up to one.



Question 2: Take a bivariate normal vector $(X,Y)$ with mean $(mu,mu)$. Then $X-Y$ and $Y-X$ are identically distributed, no matter what the correlation between $X$ and $Y$, and no matter what the variances of $X$ and $Y$ are, and therefore (1) holds. The conjecture is thus false.






share|cite|improve this answer





















  • Thanks, I've fixed the typo in my question.
    – farmer
    1 hour ago










  • For Q1, you seem to assume that P(Y = X) = 0. Is this justified? For Q2, I can't see why that's a counter-example. To falsify it, we need to find X, Y such that (1) holds but they are not identically distributed.
    – farmer
    58 mins ago



















1














I will show that the distribution of the pair $(X,Y)$ is the same as the distribution of the pair $(Y,X).$



That two random variables $X,Y$ are independent means that for every pair of measurable sets $A,B$ the events $[Xin A], [Yin B]$ are independent. In particular for any two numbers $x,y$ the events $[Xle x], [Yle y]$ are independent, so $F_{X,Y}(x,y) = F_X(x)cdot F_Y(y).$



And the distribution of the pair $(X,Y)$ is completely determined by the joint c.d.f.



Since it is given that $F_X=F_Y,$ we can write $F_{X,Y}(x,y) = F_X(x)cdot F_X(y).$



This is symmetric as a function of $x$ and $y,$ i.e. it remains the same if $x$ and $y$ are interchanged.



But interchanging $x$ and $y$ in $F_{X,Y}(x,y)$ is the same as interchanging $X$ and $Y,$ since
$$
F_{X,Y}(x,y) = Pr(Xle x & Yle y).
$$



Therefore (the main point):



The distribution of the pair $(X,Y)$ is the same as the distribution of the pair $(Y,X).$






share|cite|improve this answer























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    2 Answers
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    2














    Question 1: I assume you mean to ask whether$$mathbb{P}(X<Y)=mathbb{P}(Y<X)tag{1}$$because, the way the question is written$$mathbb{P}(X<Y)=mathbb{P}(Y>X)tag{2}$$is always true since $X<Y$ and $Y>X$ are the same events. Considering (1), it is sufficient that $X$ and $Y$ are exchangeable, that is, that $(X,Y)$ and $(Y,X)$ have the same joint distribution for (1) to hold. And obviously
    $$mathbb{P}(X<Y)=mathbb{P}(Y<X)=1/2$$since they sum up to one.



    Question 2: Take a bivariate normal vector $(X,Y)$ with mean $(mu,mu)$. Then $X-Y$ and $Y-X$ are identically distributed, no matter what the correlation between $X$ and $Y$, and no matter what the variances of $X$ and $Y$ are, and therefore (1) holds. The conjecture is thus false.






    share|cite|improve this answer





















    • Thanks, I've fixed the typo in my question.
      – farmer
      1 hour ago










    • For Q1, you seem to assume that P(Y = X) = 0. Is this justified? For Q2, I can't see why that's a counter-example. To falsify it, we need to find X, Y such that (1) holds but they are not identically distributed.
      – farmer
      58 mins ago
















    2














    Question 1: I assume you mean to ask whether$$mathbb{P}(X<Y)=mathbb{P}(Y<X)tag{1}$$because, the way the question is written$$mathbb{P}(X<Y)=mathbb{P}(Y>X)tag{2}$$is always true since $X<Y$ and $Y>X$ are the same events. Considering (1), it is sufficient that $X$ and $Y$ are exchangeable, that is, that $(X,Y)$ and $(Y,X)$ have the same joint distribution for (1) to hold. And obviously
    $$mathbb{P}(X<Y)=mathbb{P}(Y<X)=1/2$$since they sum up to one.



    Question 2: Take a bivariate normal vector $(X,Y)$ with mean $(mu,mu)$. Then $X-Y$ and $Y-X$ are identically distributed, no matter what the correlation between $X$ and $Y$, and no matter what the variances of $X$ and $Y$ are, and therefore (1) holds. The conjecture is thus false.






    share|cite|improve this answer





















    • Thanks, I've fixed the typo in my question.
      – farmer
      1 hour ago










    • For Q1, you seem to assume that P(Y = X) = 0. Is this justified? For Q2, I can't see why that's a counter-example. To falsify it, we need to find X, Y such that (1) holds but they are not identically distributed.
      – farmer
      58 mins ago














    2












    2








    2






    Question 1: I assume you mean to ask whether$$mathbb{P}(X<Y)=mathbb{P}(Y<X)tag{1}$$because, the way the question is written$$mathbb{P}(X<Y)=mathbb{P}(Y>X)tag{2}$$is always true since $X<Y$ and $Y>X$ are the same events. Considering (1), it is sufficient that $X$ and $Y$ are exchangeable, that is, that $(X,Y)$ and $(Y,X)$ have the same joint distribution for (1) to hold. And obviously
    $$mathbb{P}(X<Y)=mathbb{P}(Y<X)=1/2$$since they sum up to one.



    Question 2: Take a bivariate normal vector $(X,Y)$ with mean $(mu,mu)$. Then $X-Y$ and $Y-X$ are identically distributed, no matter what the correlation between $X$ and $Y$, and no matter what the variances of $X$ and $Y$ are, and therefore (1) holds. The conjecture is thus false.






    share|cite|improve this answer












    Question 1: I assume you mean to ask whether$$mathbb{P}(X<Y)=mathbb{P}(Y<X)tag{1}$$because, the way the question is written$$mathbb{P}(X<Y)=mathbb{P}(Y>X)tag{2}$$is always true since $X<Y$ and $Y>X$ are the same events. Considering (1), it is sufficient that $X$ and $Y$ are exchangeable, that is, that $(X,Y)$ and $(Y,X)$ have the same joint distribution for (1) to hold. And obviously
    $$mathbb{P}(X<Y)=mathbb{P}(Y<X)=1/2$$since they sum up to one.



    Question 2: Take a bivariate normal vector $(X,Y)$ with mean $(mu,mu)$. Then $X-Y$ and $Y-X$ are identically distributed, no matter what the correlation between $X$ and $Y$, and no matter what the variances of $X$ and $Y$ are, and therefore (1) holds. The conjecture is thus false.







    share|cite|improve this answer












    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer










    answered 5 hours ago









    Xi'an

    53.9k690348




    53.9k690348












    • Thanks, I've fixed the typo in my question.
      – farmer
      1 hour ago










    • For Q1, you seem to assume that P(Y = X) = 0. Is this justified? For Q2, I can't see why that's a counter-example. To falsify it, we need to find X, Y such that (1) holds but they are not identically distributed.
      – farmer
      58 mins ago


















    • Thanks, I've fixed the typo in my question.
      – farmer
      1 hour ago










    • For Q1, you seem to assume that P(Y = X) = 0. Is this justified? For Q2, I can't see why that's a counter-example. To falsify it, we need to find X, Y such that (1) holds but they are not identically distributed.
      – farmer
      58 mins ago
















    Thanks, I've fixed the typo in my question.
    – farmer
    1 hour ago




    Thanks, I've fixed the typo in my question.
    – farmer
    1 hour ago












    For Q1, you seem to assume that P(Y = X) = 0. Is this justified? For Q2, I can't see why that's a counter-example. To falsify it, we need to find X, Y such that (1) holds but they are not identically distributed.
    – farmer
    58 mins ago




    For Q1, you seem to assume that P(Y = X) = 0. Is this justified? For Q2, I can't see why that's a counter-example. To falsify it, we need to find X, Y such that (1) holds but they are not identically distributed.
    – farmer
    58 mins ago













    1














    I will show that the distribution of the pair $(X,Y)$ is the same as the distribution of the pair $(Y,X).$



    That two random variables $X,Y$ are independent means that for every pair of measurable sets $A,B$ the events $[Xin A], [Yin B]$ are independent. In particular for any two numbers $x,y$ the events $[Xle x], [Yle y]$ are independent, so $F_{X,Y}(x,y) = F_X(x)cdot F_Y(y).$



    And the distribution of the pair $(X,Y)$ is completely determined by the joint c.d.f.



    Since it is given that $F_X=F_Y,$ we can write $F_{X,Y}(x,y) = F_X(x)cdot F_X(y).$



    This is symmetric as a function of $x$ and $y,$ i.e. it remains the same if $x$ and $y$ are interchanged.



    But interchanging $x$ and $y$ in $F_{X,Y}(x,y)$ is the same as interchanging $X$ and $Y,$ since
    $$
    F_{X,Y}(x,y) = Pr(Xle x & Yle y).
    $$



    Therefore (the main point):



    The distribution of the pair $(X,Y)$ is the same as the distribution of the pair $(Y,X).$






    share|cite|improve this answer




























      1














      I will show that the distribution of the pair $(X,Y)$ is the same as the distribution of the pair $(Y,X).$



      That two random variables $X,Y$ are independent means that for every pair of measurable sets $A,B$ the events $[Xin A], [Yin B]$ are independent. In particular for any two numbers $x,y$ the events $[Xle x], [Yle y]$ are independent, so $F_{X,Y}(x,y) = F_X(x)cdot F_Y(y).$



      And the distribution of the pair $(X,Y)$ is completely determined by the joint c.d.f.



      Since it is given that $F_X=F_Y,$ we can write $F_{X,Y}(x,y) = F_X(x)cdot F_X(y).$



      This is symmetric as a function of $x$ and $y,$ i.e. it remains the same if $x$ and $y$ are interchanged.



      But interchanging $x$ and $y$ in $F_{X,Y}(x,y)$ is the same as interchanging $X$ and $Y,$ since
      $$
      F_{X,Y}(x,y) = Pr(Xle x & Yle y).
      $$



      Therefore (the main point):



      The distribution of the pair $(X,Y)$ is the same as the distribution of the pair $(Y,X).$






      share|cite|improve this answer


























        1












        1








        1






        I will show that the distribution of the pair $(X,Y)$ is the same as the distribution of the pair $(Y,X).$



        That two random variables $X,Y$ are independent means that for every pair of measurable sets $A,B$ the events $[Xin A], [Yin B]$ are independent. In particular for any two numbers $x,y$ the events $[Xle x], [Yle y]$ are independent, so $F_{X,Y}(x,y) = F_X(x)cdot F_Y(y).$



        And the distribution of the pair $(X,Y)$ is completely determined by the joint c.d.f.



        Since it is given that $F_X=F_Y,$ we can write $F_{X,Y}(x,y) = F_X(x)cdot F_X(y).$



        This is symmetric as a function of $x$ and $y,$ i.e. it remains the same if $x$ and $y$ are interchanged.



        But interchanging $x$ and $y$ in $F_{X,Y}(x,y)$ is the same as interchanging $X$ and $Y,$ since
        $$
        F_{X,Y}(x,y) = Pr(Xle x & Yle y).
        $$



        Therefore (the main point):



        The distribution of the pair $(X,Y)$ is the same as the distribution of the pair $(Y,X).$






        share|cite|improve this answer














        I will show that the distribution of the pair $(X,Y)$ is the same as the distribution of the pair $(Y,X).$



        That two random variables $X,Y$ are independent means that for every pair of measurable sets $A,B$ the events $[Xin A], [Yin B]$ are independent. In particular for any two numbers $x,y$ the events $[Xle x], [Yle y]$ are independent, so $F_{X,Y}(x,y) = F_X(x)cdot F_Y(y).$



        And the distribution of the pair $(X,Y)$ is completely determined by the joint c.d.f.



        Since it is given that $F_X=F_Y,$ we can write $F_{X,Y}(x,y) = F_X(x)cdot F_X(y).$



        This is symmetric as a function of $x$ and $y,$ i.e. it remains the same if $x$ and $y$ are interchanged.



        But interchanging $x$ and $y$ in $F_{X,Y}(x,y)$ is the same as interchanging $X$ and $Y,$ since
        $$
        F_{X,Y}(x,y) = Pr(Xle x & Yle y).
        $$



        Therefore (the main point):



        The distribution of the pair $(X,Y)$ is the same as the distribution of the pair $(Y,X).$







        share|cite|improve this answer














        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer








        edited 5 hours ago

























        answered 5 hours ago









        Michael Hardy

        3,6451430




        3,6451430






























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