Cyclical Argument in Plato's Phaedo












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Can anybody tell me in simple words the major objections to the Cyclical Argument in Plato's Phaedo ?










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    @Not_Here. It might be but I'm not sure and am giving the OP the benefit of the doubt. This is a difficult bit of the Phaedo, which anyone might have problems with. Best - Geoffrey

    – Geoffrey Thomas
    3 hours ago













  • @GeoffreyThomas That's fine, but is immaterial to whether or not we should ask. It is a rule of the site that homework questions need to be explicit, not that they are banned.

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2















Can anybody tell me in simple words the major objections to the Cyclical Argument in Plato's Phaedo ?










share|improve this question









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  • Is this homework?

    – Not_Here
    4 hours ago






  • 2





    @Not_Here. It might be but I'm not sure and am giving the OP the benefit of the doubt. This is a difficult bit of the Phaedo, which anyone might have problems with. Best - Geoffrey

    – Geoffrey Thomas
    3 hours ago













  • @GeoffreyThomas That's fine, but is immaterial to whether or not we should ask. It is a rule of the site that homework questions need to be explicit, not that they are banned.

    – Not_Here
    2 hours ago














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Can anybody tell me in simple words the major objections to the Cyclical Argument in Plato's Phaedo ?










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Can anybody tell me in simple words the major objections to the Cyclical Argument in Plato's Phaedo ?







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  • Is this homework?

    – Not_Here
    4 hours ago






  • 2





    @Not_Here. It might be but I'm not sure and am giving the OP the benefit of the doubt. This is a difficult bit of the Phaedo, which anyone might have problems with. Best - Geoffrey

    – Geoffrey Thomas
    3 hours ago













  • @GeoffreyThomas That's fine, but is immaterial to whether or not we should ask. It is a rule of the site that homework questions need to be explicit, not that they are banned.

    – Not_Here
    2 hours ago



















  • Is this homework?

    – Not_Here
    4 hours ago






  • 2





    @Not_Here. It might be but I'm not sure and am giving the OP the benefit of the doubt. This is a difficult bit of the Phaedo, which anyone might have problems with. Best - Geoffrey

    – Geoffrey Thomas
    3 hours ago













  • @GeoffreyThomas That's fine, but is immaterial to whether or not we should ask. It is a rule of the site that homework questions need to be explicit, not that they are banned.

    – Not_Here
    2 hours ago

















Is this homework?

– Not_Here
4 hours ago





Is this homework?

– Not_Here
4 hours ago




2




2





@Not_Here. It might be but I'm not sure and am giving the OP the benefit of the doubt. This is a difficult bit of the Phaedo, which anyone might have problems with. Best - Geoffrey

– Geoffrey Thomas
3 hours ago







@Not_Here. It might be but I'm not sure and am giving the OP the benefit of the doubt. This is a difficult bit of the Phaedo, which anyone might have problems with. Best - Geoffrey

– Geoffrey Thomas
3 hours ago















@GeoffreyThomas That's fine, but is immaterial to whether or not we should ask. It is a rule of the site that homework questions need to be explicit, not that they are banned.

– Not_Here
2 hours ago





@GeoffreyThomas That's fine, but is immaterial to whether or not we should ask. It is a rule of the site that homework questions need to be explicit, not that they are banned.

– Not_Here
2 hours ago










1 Answer
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The following extract from Michael Pakaluk might help though it will probably need more than one reading (just speaking from experience) :




The Cyclical Argument (CA) is not unfairly presented as follows:




  1. Anything that comes to take on an attribute which has an opposite,
    previously had that opposite attribute.


  2. Being dead and being alive are opposite attributes.


  3. When something comes to be alive, it comes to take on the attribute
    of being alive.


  4. Therefore, anything that comes to be alive previously had the attribute
    of being dead.


  5. But everything that is dead was previously alive.


  6. Therefore, anything that comes to be alive was previously alive.


  7. Therefore, living things come from previously living things.


  8. Therefore, living things will once again become living things.


  9. Nothing comes to take on again, at a later time, an attribute that it
    now has, if it perishes in the process.


  10. Thus, living things do not perish when they come to be dead, and in
    this sense they are immortal.



Plato's strategy is to connect this present life of a living thing with a previous life; that done, he draws the general conclusion that living things
were previously alive; yet, he reasons, they could not have come alive
again, if they did not endure in the interval between their previous life
and their current one; and thus, as regards any living thing, we can have
some confidence that it will continue to endure, in the interval after this
current life and before its next life.



Thus stated, the argument is clearly unsound, because the first premise
is in need of two familiar qualifications. That 'opposites come from opposites' is true only if: (i) we presume that we are not dealing with a case
of simple generation, where something comes to be F only in coming to
be simpliciter; and (ii) the opposites are 'contradictory', rather than mere
'contrary' opposites. But if premise 1. is qualified accordingly, premise 2.
needs to be revised: being dead and being alive are not contradictory
opposites, since there are things that are neither dead nor afive. Yet if we
rewrite premise 2., so that it involves opposites that are properly contradictory, e.g. 'Being not alive and being alive are opposite attributes', then
premise 5. needs to be changed accordingly, becoming: 'Everything that
is not alive was previously alive' - which is evidently false.



It would be good to have a diagnosis of why the argument goes wrong,
and for this purpose Gallop's commentary is particularly useful. Gallop
correctly notes, for instance, that Plato in CA tends to speak as though it
is the soul which comes to be alive, rather than the animal, but - Gallop
objects - this "insinuates a view of 'birth' in which the soul's discarnate
existence is already covertly assumed. And since that is precisely what
the argument purports to prove, the very conception of incarnation can be
seen to beg the essential question" (105). Again, Gallop wonders why we
shouldn't understand 'being dead' (in our premise 2. above) to mean, simply, 'ceasing to exist', in which case, clearly, 'being alive' and 'being
dead' could not be treated as opposing predicates, as CA requires, since
one would, in that case, be treating existence as though it were a predicate. Speculating on why Plato might have resisted this identification, Gallop
remarks that "a wedge might be driven between 'being dead' and 'ceasing to exist' by treating Socrates' soul as a separate subject, distinct from
Socrates himself, and alternating between incarnate and discarmate states.
But this would be, once again, to assume what has to be proved" (106).
Again, objecting to (our) premise 3. above, Gallop remarks that "The
sense of 'coming to be alive' required for the argument is not that in
which a living thing comes into being, but that in which a soul 'becomes
incarnate' in a living body. Yet it cannot do this unless it already exists
before birth or conception. And whether it does so or not is just what is
at issue" (110).



So Gallop maintains that CA goes awry because Plato begs the question, surreptitiously supposing that the soul is a distinct subject, independent of the body.




References



Michael Pakaluk, 'Degrees of Separation in the "Phaedo"', Phronesis, Vol. 48, No. 2 (2003), pp. 89-115: 90-2.



D. Gallop, Plato: Phaedo, Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1975.



C.J.F. Williams, 'On Dying', Philosophy 1969 (44) 217-30.






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    1 Answer
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    The following extract from Michael Pakaluk might help though it will probably need more than one reading (just speaking from experience) :




    The Cyclical Argument (CA) is not unfairly presented as follows:




    1. Anything that comes to take on an attribute which has an opposite,
      previously had that opposite attribute.


    2. Being dead and being alive are opposite attributes.


    3. When something comes to be alive, it comes to take on the attribute
      of being alive.


    4. Therefore, anything that comes to be alive previously had the attribute
      of being dead.


    5. But everything that is dead was previously alive.


    6. Therefore, anything that comes to be alive was previously alive.


    7. Therefore, living things come from previously living things.


    8. Therefore, living things will once again become living things.


    9. Nothing comes to take on again, at a later time, an attribute that it
      now has, if it perishes in the process.


    10. Thus, living things do not perish when they come to be dead, and in
      this sense they are immortal.



    Plato's strategy is to connect this present life of a living thing with a previous life; that done, he draws the general conclusion that living things
    were previously alive; yet, he reasons, they could not have come alive
    again, if they did not endure in the interval between their previous life
    and their current one; and thus, as regards any living thing, we can have
    some confidence that it will continue to endure, in the interval after this
    current life and before its next life.



    Thus stated, the argument is clearly unsound, because the first premise
    is in need of two familiar qualifications. That 'opposites come from opposites' is true only if: (i) we presume that we are not dealing with a case
    of simple generation, where something comes to be F only in coming to
    be simpliciter; and (ii) the opposites are 'contradictory', rather than mere
    'contrary' opposites. But if premise 1. is qualified accordingly, premise 2.
    needs to be revised: being dead and being alive are not contradictory
    opposites, since there are things that are neither dead nor afive. Yet if we
    rewrite premise 2., so that it involves opposites that are properly contradictory, e.g. 'Being not alive and being alive are opposite attributes', then
    premise 5. needs to be changed accordingly, becoming: 'Everything that
    is not alive was previously alive' - which is evidently false.



    It would be good to have a diagnosis of why the argument goes wrong,
    and for this purpose Gallop's commentary is particularly useful. Gallop
    correctly notes, for instance, that Plato in CA tends to speak as though it
    is the soul which comes to be alive, rather than the animal, but - Gallop
    objects - this "insinuates a view of 'birth' in which the soul's discarnate
    existence is already covertly assumed. And since that is precisely what
    the argument purports to prove, the very conception of incarnation can be
    seen to beg the essential question" (105). Again, Gallop wonders why we
    shouldn't understand 'being dead' (in our premise 2. above) to mean, simply, 'ceasing to exist', in which case, clearly, 'being alive' and 'being
    dead' could not be treated as opposing predicates, as CA requires, since
    one would, in that case, be treating existence as though it were a predicate. Speculating on why Plato might have resisted this identification, Gallop
    remarks that "a wedge might be driven between 'being dead' and 'ceasing to exist' by treating Socrates' soul as a separate subject, distinct from
    Socrates himself, and alternating between incarnate and discarmate states.
    But this would be, once again, to assume what has to be proved" (106).
    Again, objecting to (our) premise 3. above, Gallop remarks that "The
    sense of 'coming to be alive' required for the argument is not that in
    which a living thing comes into being, but that in which a soul 'becomes
    incarnate' in a living body. Yet it cannot do this unless it already exists
    before birth or conception. And whether it does so or not is just what is
    at issue" (110).



    So Gallop maintains that CA goes awry because Plato begs the question, surreptitiously supposing that the soul is a distinct subject, independent of the body.




    References



    Michael Pakaluk, 'Degrees of Separation in the "Phaedo"', Phronesis, Vol. 48, No. 2 (2003), pp. 89-115: 90-2.



    D. Gallop, Plato: Phaedo, Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1975.



    C.J.F. Williams, 'On Dying', Philosophy 1969 (44) 217-30.






    share|improve this answer




























      2














      The following extract from Michael Pakaluk might help though it will probably need more than one reading (just speaking from experience) :




      The Cyclical Argument (CA) is not unfairly presented as follows:




      1. Anything that comes to take on an attribute which has an opposite,
        previously had that opposite attribute.


      2. Being dead and being alive are opposite attributes.


      3. When something comes to be alive, it comes to take on the attribute
        of being alive.


      4. Therefore, anything that comes to be alive previously had the attribute
        of being dead.


      5. But everything that is dead was previously alive.


      6. Therefore, anything that comes to be alive was previously alive.


      7. Therefore, living things come from previously living things.


      8. Therefore, living things will once again become living things.


      9. Nothing comes to take on again, at a later time, an attribute that it
        now has, if it perishes in the process.


      10. Thus, living things do not perish when they come to be dead, and in
        this sense they are immortal.



      Plato's strategy is to connect this present life of a living thing with a previous life; that done, he draws the general conclusion that living things
      were previously alive; yet, he reasons, they could not have come alive
      again, if they did not endure in the interval between their previous life
      and their current one; and thus, as regards any living thing, we can have
      some confidence that it will continue to endure, in the interval after this
      current life and before its next life.



      Thus stated, the argument is clearly unsound, because the first premise
      is in need of two familiar qualifications. That 'opposites come from opposites' is true only if: (i) we presume that we are not dealing with a case
      of simple generation, where something comes to be F only in coming to
      be simpliciter; and (ii) the opposites are 'contradictory', rather than mere
      'contrary' opposites. But if premise 1. is qualified accordingly, premise 2.
      needs to be revised: being dead and being alive are not contradictory
      opposites, since there are things that are neither dead nor afive. Yet if we
      rewrite premise 2., so that it involves opposites that are properly contradictory, e.g. 'Being not alive and being alive are opposite attributes', then
      premise 5. needs to be changed accordingly, becoming: 'Everything that
      is not alive was previously alive' - which is evidently false.



      It would be good to have a diagnosis of why the argument goes wrong,
      and for this purpose Gallop's commentary is particularly useful. Gallop
      correctly notes, for instance, that Plato in CA tends to speak as though it
      is the soul which comes to be alive, rather than the animal, but - Gallop
      objects - this "insinuates a view of 'birth' in which the soul's discarnate
      existence is already covertly assumed. And since that is precisely what
      the argument purports to prove, the very conception of incarnation can be
      seen to beg the essential question" (105). Again, Gallop wonders why we
      shouldn't understand 'being dead' (in our premise 2. above) to mean, simply, 'ceasing to exist', in which case, clearly, 'being alive' and 'being
      dead' could not be treated as opposing predicates, as CA requires, since
      one would, in that case, be treating existence as though it were a predicate. Speculating on why Plato might have resisted this identification, Gallop
      remarks that "a wedge might be driven between 'being dead' and 'ceasing to exist' by treating Socrates' soul as a separate subject, distinct from
      Socrates himself, and alternating between incarnate and discarmate states.
      But this would be, once again, to assume what has to be proved" (106).
      Again, objecting to (our) premise 3. above, Gallop remarks that "The
      sense of 'coming to be alive' required for the argument is not that in
      which a living thing comes into being, but that in which a soul 'becomes
      incarnate' in a living body. Yet it cannot do this unless it already exists
      before birth or conception. And whether it does so or not is just what is
      at issue" (110).



      So Gallop maintains that CA goes awry because Plato begs the question, surreptitiously supposing that the soul is a distinct subject, independent of the body.




      References



      Michael Pakaluk, 'Degrees of Separation in the "Phaedo"', Phronesis, Vol. 48, No. 2 (2003), pp. 89-115: 90-2.



      D. Gallop, Plato: Phaedo, Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1975.



      C.J.F. Williams, 'On Dying', Philosophy 1969 (44) 217-30.






      share|improve this answer


























        2












        2








        2







        The following extract from Michael Pakaluk might help though it will probably need more than one reading (just speaking from experience) :




        The Cyclical Argument (CA) is not unfairly presented as follows:




        1. Anything that comes to take on an attribute which has an opposite,
          previously had that opposite attribute.


        2. Being dead and being alive are opposite attributes.


        3. When something comes to be alive, it comes to take on the attribute
          of being alive.


        4. Therefore, anything that comes to be alive previously had the attribute
          of being dead.


        5. But everything that is dead was previously alive.


        6. Therefore, anything that comes to be alive was previously alive.


        7. Therefore, living things come from previously living things.


        8. Therefore, living things will once again become living things.


        9. Nothing comes to take on again, at a later time, an attribute that it
          now has, if it perishes in the process.


        10. Thus, living things do not perish when they come to be dead, and in
          this sense they are immortal.



        Plato's strategy is to connect this present life of a living thing with a previous life; that done, he draws the general conclusion that living things
        were previously alive; yet, he reasons, they could not have come alive
        again, if they did not endure in the interval between their previous life
        and their current one; and thus, as regards any living thing, we can have
        some confidence that it will continue to endure, in the interval after this
        current life and before its next life.



        Thus stated, the argument is clearly unsound, because the first premise
        is in need of two familiar qualifications. That 'opposites come from opposites' is true only if: (i) we presume that we are not dealing with a case
        of simple generation, where something comes to be F only in coming to
        be simpliciter; and (ii) the opposites are 'contradictory', rather than mere
        'contrary' opposites. But if premise 1. is qualified accordingly, premise 2.
        needs to be revised: being dead and being alive are not contradictory
        opposites, since there are things that are neither dead nor afive. Yet if we
        rewrite premise 2., so that it involves opposites that are properly contradictory, e.g. 'Being not alive and being alive are opposite attributes', then
        premise 5. needs to be changed accordingly, becoming: 'Everything that
        is not alive was previously alive' - which is evidently false.



        It would be good to have a diagnosis of why the argument goes wrong,
        and for this purpose Gallop's commentary is particularly useful. Gallop
        correctly notes, for instance, that Plato in CA tends to speak as though it
        is the soul which comes to be alive, rather than the animal, but - Gallop
        objects - this "insinuates a view of 'birth' in which the soul's discarnate
        existence is already covertly assumed. And since that is precisely what
        the argument purports to prove, the very conception of incarnation can be
        seen to beg the essential question" (105). Again, Gallop wonders why we
        shouldn't understand 'being dead' (in our premise 2. above) to mean, simply, 'ceasing to exist', in which case, clearly, 'being alive' and 'being
        dead' could not be treated as opposing predicates, as CA requires, since
        one would, in that case, be treating existence as though it were a predicate. Speculating on why Plato might have resisted this identification, Gallop
        remarks that "a wedge might be driven between 'being dead' and 'ceasing to exist' by treating Socrates' soul as a separate subject, distinct from
        Socrates himself, and alternating between incarnate and discarmate states.
        But this would be, once again, to assume what has to be proved" (106).
        Again, objecting to (our) premise 3. above, Gallop remarks that "The
        sense of 'coming to be alive' required for the argument is not that in
        which a living thing comes into being, but that in which a soul 'becomes
        incarnate' in a living body. Yet it cannot do this unless it already exists
        before birth or conception. And whether it does so or not is just what is
        at issue" (110).



        So Gallop maintains that CA goes awry because Plato begs the question, surreptitiously supposing that the soul is a distinct subject, independent of the body.




        References



        Michael Pakaluk, 'Degrees of Separation in the "Phaedo"', Phronesis, Vol. 48, No. 2 (2003), pp. 89-115: 90-2.



        D. Gallop, Plato: Phaedo, Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1975.



        C.J.F. Williams, 'On Dying', Philosophy 1969 (44) 217-30.






        share|improve this answer













        The following extract from Michael Pakaluk might help though it will probably need more than one reading (just speaking from experience) :




        The Cyclical Argument (CA) is not unfairly presented as follows:




        1. Anything that comes to take on an attribute which has an opposite,
          previously had that opposite attribute.


        2. Being dead and being alive are opposite attributes.


        3. When something comes to be alive, it comes to take on the attribute
          of being alive.


        4. Therefore, anything that comes to be alive previously had the attribute
          of being dead.


        5. But everything that is dead was previously alive.


        6. Therefore, anything that comes to be alive was previously alive.


        7. Therefore, living things come from previously living things.


        8. Therefore, living things will once again become living things.


        9. Nothing comes to take on again, at a later time, an attribute that it
          now has, if it perishes in the process.


        10. Thus, living things do not perish when they come to be dead, and in
          this sense they are immortal.



        Plato's strategy is to connect this present life of a living thing with a previous life; that done, he draws the general conclusion that living things
        were previously alive; yet, he reasons, they could not have come alive
        again, if they did not endure in the interval between their previous life
        and their current one; and thus, as regards any living thing, we can have
        some confidence that it will continue to endure, in the interval after this
        current life and before its next life.



        Thus stated, the argument is clearly unsound, because the first premise
        is in need of two familiar qualifications. That 'opposites come from opposites' is true only if: (i) we presume that we are not dealing with a case
        of simple generation, where something comes to be F only in coming to
        be simpliciter; and (ii) the opposites are 'contradictory', rather than mere
        'contrary' opposites. But if premise 1. is qualified accordingly, premise 2.
        needs to be revised: being dead and being alive are not contradictory
        opposites, since there are things that are neither dead nor afive. Yet if we
        rewrite premise 2., so that it involves opposites that are properly contradictory, e.g. 'Being not alive and being alive are opposite attributes', then
        premise 5. needs to be changed accordingly, becoming: 'Everything that
        is not alive was previously alive' - which is evidently false.



        It would be good to have a diagnosis of why the argument goes wrong,
        and for this purpose Gallop's commentary is particularly useful. Gallop
        correctly notes, for instance, that Plato in CA tends to speak as though it
        is the soul which comes to be alive, rather than the animal, but - Gallop
        objects - this "insinuates a view of 'birth' in which the soul's discarnate
        existence is already covertly assumed. And since that is precisely what
        the argument purports to prove, the very conception of incarnation can be
        seen to beg the essential question" (105). Again, Gallop wonders why we
        shouldn't understand 'being dead' (in our premise 2. above) to mean, simply, 'ceasing to exist', in which case, clearly, 'being alive' and 'being
        dead' could not be treated as opposing predicates, as CA requires, since
        one would, in that case, be treating existence as though it were a predicate. Speculating on why Plato might have resisted this identification, Gallop
        remarks that "a wedge might be driven between 'being dead' and 'ceasing to exist' by treating Socrates' soul as a separate subject, distinct from
        Socrates himself, and alternating between incarnate and discarmate states.
        But this would be, once again, to assume what has to be proved" (106).
        Again, objecting to (our) premise 3. above, Gallop remarks that "The
        sense of 'coming to be alive' required for the argument is not that in
        which a living thing comes into being, but that in which a soul 'becomes
        incarnate' in a living body. Yet it cannot do this unless it already exists
        before birth or conception. And whether it does so or not is just what is
        at issue" (110).



        So Gallop maintains that CA goes awry because Plato begs the question, surreptitiously supposing that the soul is a distinct subject, independent of the body.




        References



        Michael Pakaluk, 'Degrees of Separation in the "Phaedo"', Phronesis, Vol. 48, No. 2 (2003), pp. 89-115: 90-2.



        D. Gallop, Plato: Phaedo, Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1975.



        C.J.F. Williams, 'On Dying', Philosophy 1969 (44) 217-30.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



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        answered 3 hours ago









        Geoffrey ThomasGeoffrey Thomas

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