Is this 6 circuits inside a Raceway that calls for 50% deratement?












1















Here is pic of the 3 panels. The third right most is a 2nd disconnect (150A going to the 125A main breaker at main panel at middle with 38mm^2 wire). I will need to downgrade the 150A breaker in 3rd stand alone panel as during overload, the 38mm^2 would melt first before the breaker trips. We have these mismatches because in the Philippines, all contractors apply at city hall using simple fake electrical plans (in the plan it's only 22mm^2 main feeder used and no aircons), then after permit released, the contractors change all details and since there is no inspection, they always get away with it).



enter image description here



This is permanent as I won't put any raceway so no problem about S bends, etc. isn't it? We never have inspection.



This is all covered in normal usage:



enter image description here



consider the following connections:



enter image description here



The above subpanel is connected to the right main panel only 3 inches away:



enter image description here



Do you consider it as 6 circuits inside a Raceway? Is it not a Raceway is when there is a PVC tube (with wires inside it). But when they just converge into an opening and diverse again. Then it is not technically called a Raceway right?










share|improve this question





























    1















    Here is pic of the 3 panels. The third right most is a 2nd disconnect (150A going to the 125A main breaker at main panel at middle with 38mm^2 wire). I will need to downgrade the 150A breaker in 3rd stand alone panel as during overload, the 38mm^2 would melt first before the breaker trips. We have these mismatches because in the Philippines, all contractors apply at city hall using simple fake electrical plans (in the plan it's only 22mm^2 main feeder used and no aircons), then after permit released, the contractors change all details and since there is no inspection, they always get away with it).



    enter image description here



    This is permanent as I won't put any raceway so no problem about S bends, etc. isn't it? We never have inspection.



    This is all covered in normal usage:



    enter image description here



    consider the following connections:



    enter image description here



    The above subpanel is connected to the right main panel only 3 inches away:



    enter image description here



    Do you consider it as 6 circuits inside a Raceway? Is it not a Raceway is when there is a PVC tube (with wires inside it). But when they just converge into an opening and diverse again. Then it is not technically called a Raceway right?










    share|improve this question



























      1












      1








      1








      Here is pic of the 3 panels. The third right most is a 2nd disconnect (150A going to the 125A main breaker at main panel at middle with 38mm^2 wire). I will need to downgrade the 150A breaker in 3rd stand alone panel as during overload, the 38mm^2 would melt first before the breaker trips. We have these mismatches because in the Philippines, all contractors apply at city hall using simple fake electrical plans (in the plan it's only 22mm^2 main feeder used and no aircons), then after permit released, the contractors change all details and since there is no inspection, they always get away with it).



      enter image description here



      This is permanent as I won't put any raceway so no problem about S bends, etc. isn't it? We never have inspection.



      This is all covered in normal usage:



      enter image description here



      consider the following connections:



      enter image description here



      The above subpanel is connected to the right main panel only 3 inches away:



      enter image description here



      Do you consider it as 6 circuits inside a Raceway? Is it not a Raceway is when there is a PVC tube (with wires inside it). But when they just converge into an opening and diverse again. Then it is not technically called a Raceway right?










      share|improve this question
















      Here is pic of the 3 panels. The third right most is a 2nd disconnect (150A going to the 125A main breaker at main panel at middle with 38mm^2 wire). I will need to downgrade the 150A breaker in 3rd stand alone panel as during overload, the 38mm^2 would melt first before the breaker trips. We have these mismatches because in the Philippines, all contractors apply at city hall using simple fake electrical plans (in the plan it's only 22mm^2 main feeder used and no aircons), then after permit released, the contractors change all details and since there is no inspection, they always get away with it).



      enter image description here



      This is permanent as I won't put any raceway so no problem about S bends, etc. isn't it? We never have inspection.



      This is all covered in normal usage:



      enter image description here



      consider the following connections:



      enter image description here



      The above subpanel is connected to the right main panel only 3 inches away:



      enter image description here



      Do you consider it as 6 circuits inside a Raceway? Is it not a Raceway is when there is a PVC tube (with wires inside it). But when they just converge into an opening and diverse again. Then it is not technically called a Raceway right?







      electrical electrical-panel






      share|improve this question















      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited 1 hour ago







      Jtl

















      asked 3 hours ago









      JtlJtl

      846




      846






















          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          2














          The NEC doesn't impose a derate until you get to 24"



          NEC 310.15(B)(3)(a) (essentially replicated for you in PEC 3.10.1.15(b)(2)) does not impose any derating factors for raceways (nipples, really) shorter than 600mm (24"), such as yours:




          (a) More than Three Current-Carrying Conductors. Where the
          number of current-carrying conductors in a raceway or cable
          exceeds three, or where single conductors or multiconductor
          cables are installed without maintaining spacing for a continuous length longer than 600 mm (24 in.) and are not installed
          in raceways, the allowable ampacity of each conductor shall be
          reduced as shown in Table 310.15(B)(3)(a). Each current-carrying conductor of a paralleled set of conductors shall be
          counted as a current-carrying conductor.




          So, you do not need to worry about this derate for your application, since the raceway routing would need to be quite convoluted to exceed 24".



          However, you have two problems here



          First off, the normal sequence of events is that the raceway is installed first and wires then pulled through it -- this avoids causing inordinate damage to wire insulation by gouging it with the ends of raceway sections or the edges of boxes. You'll need to very carefully pull the wires back inside the subpanel box for now until you have the raceway installed.



          Furthermore, and more importantly, you have a problem here -- surface mounting the subpanel put you in a situation where the raceway needs to make an offset bend ("dog leg" or "S-bend") to get from a knockout in one panel to a knockout in the other. This is especially troublesome for you for two reasons:




          1. Conduit bends have a quite wide radius, especially for fat conduit like the 3" you are using

          2. Conduit bodies (including L bodies and pull elbows) must be openable without removing finish materials, just like you cannot drywall over a junction box


          Furthermore, that giant 3" nipple is going to cause issues if you flush-mount the subpanel (due to the fact that it will split any stud in the way clean in half). The idea of bringing it in via the front of the main panel doesn't work either, because that'd cause merry heck if the main panel's deadfront had to be removed later for servicing (in fact, I'd call it a violation of NEC 314.22's Exception).






          share|improve this answer
























          • Please see new edited post picture of entire panels. It is permanent installation in that I won't add any raceway so there is no S bend problem, right?

            – Jtl
            2 hours ago






          • 1





            @Jtl -- can't do that -- individual wires must be part of a Chapter 3 wiring method, so that means "in a raceway" for all practical purposes

            – ThreePhaseEel
            1 hour ago











          • What would happen if they are not put in a raceway? See above more edited post where all covers are closed. So the cabinet can be said to be the main panel itself.

            – Jtl
            1 hour ago






          • 1





            @Jtl -- the raceway performs the role of a cable jacket in protecting the individual wires' insulation from external sources of physical damage. What's on the other side of the wall behind these cabinets, by the way?

            – ThreePhaseEel
            1 hour ago






          • 1





            @Jtl -- if you have the stuff to put holes through a cement wall, I'd go out the back of each panel into LBs on the other side of the wall and then conduit between the LBs

            – ThreePhaseEel
            1 hour ago



















          2














          Another problem is that there is not legal work area around the panels, particularly the original panel. Placing them inside cabinets does not work unless the cabinets are quite shallow.



          I would say a whopper, however, is the lack of ability to put a lid on the main panel! Particularly it is impossible to reset any breaker without direct contact with hot components and the chance of tearing out a wire. This would get inspectors very, very excited in the U.S. and they would most likely revoke your building's occupancy permit on the spot. Any sort of arc flash that occurs in the panel could easily escape the panel and set the cabinets or their contents on fire. Have a bunch of rolls of paper towel, fwoof.



          Now the way I would tackle that is with the smaller knockouts on the side of the subpanel. Use those for five of your circuits (now I realize they are smaller wires in loom, not fat wires). Except I would use flexible metal conduit. Route them wherever feasible so you can access a proper entry point on the main panel. Or better, remove those circuits altogether from the main panel and have them join the armored cable in a junction box just below the main panel.



          For the feeder, I would plug the 3" hole with a conduit reducing washer designed for a much smaller conduit, say 1", and again use flexible metal conduit to a proper point of entry on the main panel.



          enter image description here



          And a minor detail, the extra wires tapping the main lugs are not correct. Since these are your lugs, you can simply stack on another lug, such as crimp lugs, which for such small wires are quite thin.



          enter image description here






          share|improve this answer


























          • Since the lid can't be used to cover it anymore. Then the lid would be the cabinet front cover so the entire cabinet can be considered the panel. It is shallow and no other things (like plates) would be put inside it. Also since the panel is not connected to any EGC, then I will treat the entire panel chassis as hot. Meaning, to touch it or close any breaker I will put on electrical gloves. Also there is a second disconnect at the right side. I turned if off first before touching or fixing the main panel. About arc flash. Maybe it's time to install AFCI. Hmm...

            – Jtl
            1 hour ago











          • Harper.Siemens finally tested their GFCI breaker and the bus bar.They said the gap between bus bar stub and spring clips is normal. See the gap imageshack.com/a/img922/278/d8qiHL.jpg They wrote me: "Sorry for the delay. Engineering has received new breakers from stock, which, when installed are configured the same as you have shown in the photos you sent with the angle on the connections. Engineering has tested & indicate contact is sufficient for proper function of the breakers." Harper, do u think it's good idea to transfer all the Siemens GFCI in the main panel since gap is normal?

            – Jtl
            50 mins ago











          Your Answer








          StackExchange.ready(function() {
          var channelOptions = {
          tags: "".split(" "),
          id: "73"
          };
          initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

          StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
          // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
          if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
          StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
          createEditor();
          });
          }
          else {
          createEditor();
          }
          });

          function createEditor() {
          StackExchange.prepareEditor({
          heartbeatType: 'answer',
          autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
          convertImagesToLinks: false,
          noModals: true,
          showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
          reputationToPostImages: null,
          bindNavPrevention: true,
          postfix: "",
          imageUploader: {
          brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
          contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
          allowUrls: true
          },
          noCode: true, onDemand: true,
          discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
          ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
          });


          }
          });














          draft saved

          draft discarded


















          StackExchange.ready(
          function () {
          StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fdiy.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f156429%2fis-this-6-circuits-inside-a-raceway-that-calls-for-50-deratement%23new-answer', 'question_page');
          }
          );

          Post as a guest















          Required, but never shown

























          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes








          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes









          2














          The NEC doesn't impose a derate until you get to 24"



          NEC 310.15(B)(3)(a) (essentially replicated for you in PEC 3.10.1.15(b)(2)) does not impose any derating factors for raceways (nipples, really) shorter than 600mm (24"), such as yours:




          (a) More than Three Current-Carrying Conductors. Where the
          number of current-carrying conductors in a raceway or cable
          exceeds three, or where single conductors or multiconductor
          cables are installed without maintaining spacing for a continuous length longer than 600 mm (24 in.) and are not installed
          in raceways, the allowable ampacity of each conductor shall be
          reduced as shown in Table 310.15(B)(3)(a). Each current-carrying conductor of a paralleled set of conductors shall be
          counted as a current-carrying conductor.




          So, you do not need to worry about this derate for your application, since the raceway routing would need to be quite convoluted to exceed 24".



          However, you have two problems here



          First off, the normal sequence of events is that the raceway is installed first and wires then pulled through it -- this avoids causing inordinate damage to wire insulation by gouging it with the ends of raceway sections or the edges of boxes. You'll need to very carefully pull the wires back inside the subpanel box for now until you have the raceway installed.



          Furthermore, and more importantly, you have a problem here -- surface mounting the subpanel put you in a situation where the raceway needs to make an offset bend ("dog leg" or "S-bend") to get from a knockout in one panel to a knockout in the other. This is especially troublesome for you for two reasons:




          1. Conduit bends have a quite wide radius, especially for fat conduit like the 3" you are using

          2. Conduit bodies (including L bodies and pull elbows) must be openable without removing finish materials, just like you cannot drywall over a junction box


          Furthermore, that giant 3" nipple is going to cause issues if you flush-mount the subpanel (due to the fact that it will split any stud in the way clean in half). The idea of bringing it in via the front of the main panel doesn't work either, because that'd cause merry heck if the main panel's deadfront had to be removed later for servicing (in fact, I'd call it a violation of NEC 314.22's Exception).






          share|improve this answer
























          • Please see new edited post picture of entire panels. It is permanent installation in that I won't add any raceway so there is no S bend problem, right?

            – Jtl
            2 hours ago






          • 1





            @Jtl -- can't do that -- individual wires must be part of a Chapter 3 wiring method, so that means "in a raceway" for all practical purposes

            – ThreePhaseEel
            1 hour ago











          • What would happen if they are not put in a raceway? See above more edited post where all covers are closed. So the cabinet can be said to be the main panel itself.

            – Jtl
            1 hour ago






          • 1





            @Jtl -- the raceway performs the role of a cable jacket in protecting the individual wires' insulation from external sources of physical damage. What's on the other side of the wall behind these cabinets, by the way?

            – ThreePhaseEel
            1 hour ago






          • 1





            @Jtl -- if you have the stuff to put holes through a cement wall, I'd go out the back of each panel into LBs on the other side of the wall and then conduit between the LBs

            – ThreePhaseEel
            1 hour ago
















          2














          The NEC doesn't impose a derate until you get to 24"



          NEC 310.15(B)(3)(a) (essentially replicated for you in PEC 3.10.1.15(b)(2)) does not impose any derating factors for raceways (nipples, really) shorter than 600mm (24"), such as yours:




          (a) More than Three Current-Carrying Conductors. Where the
          number of current-carrying conductors in a raceway or cable
          exceeds three, or where single conductors or multiconductor
          cables are installed without maintaining spacing for a continuous length longer than 600 mm (24 in.) and are not installed
          in raceways, the allowable ampacity of each conductor shall be
          reduced as shown in Table 310.15(B)(3)(a). Each current-carrying conductor of a paralleled set of conductors shall be
          counted as a current-carrying conductor.




          So, you do not need to worry about this derate for your application, since the raceway routing would need to be quite convoluted to exceed 24".



          However, you have two problems here



          First off, the normal sequence of events is that the raceway is installed first and wires then pulled through it -- this avoids causing inordinate damage to wire insulation by gouging it with the ends of raceway sections or the edges of boxes. You'll need to very carefully pull the wires back inside the subpanel box for now until you have the raceway installed.



          Furthermore, and more importantly, you have a problem here -- surface mounting the subpanel put you in a situation where the raceway needs to make an offset bend ("dog leg" or "S-bend") to get from a knockout in one panel to a knockout in the other. This is especially troublesome for you for two reasons:




          1. Conduit bends have a quite wide radius, especially for fat conduit like the 3" you are using

          2. Conduit bodies (including L bodies and pull elbows) must be openable without removing finish materials, just like you cannot drywall over a junction box


          Furthermore, that giant 3" nipple is going to cause issues if you flush-mount the subpanel (due to the fact that it will split any stud in the way clean in half). The idea of bringing it in via the front of the main panel doesn't work either, because that'd cause merry heck if the main panel's deadfront had to be removed later for servicing (in fact, I'd call it a violation of NEC 314.22's Exception).






          share|improve this answer
























          • Please see new edited post picture of entire panels. It is permanent installation in that I won't add any raceway so there is no S bend problem, right?

            – Jtl
            2 hours ago






          • 1





            @Jtl -- can't do that -- individual wires must be part of a Chapter 3 wiring method, so that means "in a raceway" for all practical purposes

            – ThreePhaseEel
            1 hour ago











          • What would happen if they are not put in a raceway? See above more edited post where all covers are closed. So the cabinet can be said to be the main panel itself.

            – Jtl
            1 hour ago






          • 1





            @Jtl -- the raceway performs the role of a cable jacket in protecting the individual wires' insulation from external sources of physical damage. What's on the other side of the wall behind these cabinets, by the way?

            – ThreePhaseEel
            1 hour ago






          • 1





            @Jtl -- if you have the stuff to put holes through a cement wall, I'd go out the back of each panel into LBs on the other side of the wall and then conduit between the LBs

            – ThreePhaseEel
            1 hour ago














          2












          2








          2







          The NEC doesn't impose a derate until you get to 24"



          NEC 310.15(B)(3)(a) (essentially replicated for you in PEC 3.10.1.15(b)(2)) does not impose any derating factors for raceways (nipples, really) shorter than 600mm (24"), such as yours:




          (a) More than Three Current-Carrying Conductors. Where the
          number of current-carrying conductors in a raceway or cable
          exceeds three, or where single conductors or multiconductor
          cables are installed without maintaining spacing for a continuous length longer than 600 mm (24 in.) and are not installed
          in raceways, the allowable ampacity of each conductor shall be
          reduced as shown in Table 310.15(B)(3)(a). Each current-carrying conductor of a paralleled set of conductors shall be
          counted as a current-carrying conductor.




          So, you do not need to worry about this derate for your application, since the raceway routing would need to be quite convoluted to exceed 24".



          However, you have two problems here



          First off, the normal sequence of events is that the raceway is installed first and wires then pulled through it -- this avoids causing inordinate damage to wire insulation by gouging it with the ends of raceway sections or the edges of boxes. You'll need to very carefully pull the wires back inside the subpanel box for now until you have the raceway installed.



          Furthermore, and more importantly, you have a problem here -- surface mounting the subpanel put you in a situation where the raceway needs to make an offset bend ("dog leg" or "S-bend") to get from a knockout in one panel to a knockout in the other. This is especially troublesome for you for two reasons:




          1. Conduit bends have a quite wide radius, especially for fat conduit like the 3" you are using

          2. Conduit bodies (including L bodies and pull elbows) must be openable without removing finish materials, just like you cannot drywall over a junction box


          Furthermore, that giant 3" nipple is going to cause issues if you flush-mount the subpanel (due to the fact that it will split any stud in the way clean in half). The idea of bringing it in via the front of the main panel doesn't work either, because that'd cause merry heck if the main panel's deadfront had to be removed later for servicing (in fact, I'd call it a violation of NEC 314.22's Exception).






          share|improve this answer













          The NEC doesn't impose a derate until you get to 24"



          NEC 310.15(B)(3)(a) (essentially replicated for you in PEC 3.10.1.15(b)(2)) does not impose any derating factors for raceways (nipples, really) shorter than 600mm (24"), such as yours:




          (a) More than Three Current-Carrying Conductors. Where the
          number of current-carrying conductors in a raceway or cable
          exceeds three, or where single conductors or multiconductor
          cables are installed without maintaining spacing for a continuous length longer than 600 mm (24 in.) and are not installed
          in raceways, the allowable ampacity of each conductor shall be
          reduced as shown in Table 310.15(B)(3)(a). Each current-carrying conductor of a paralleled set of conductors shall be
          counted as a current-carrying conductor.




          So, you do not need to worry about this derate for your application, since the raceway routing would need to be quite convoluted to exceed 24".



          However, you have two problems here



          First off, the normal sequence of events is that the raceway is installed first and wires then pulled through it -- this avoids causing inordinate damage to wire insulation by gouging it with the ends of raceway sections or the edges of boxes. You'll need to very carefully pull the wires back inside the subpanel box for now until you have the raceway installed.



          Furthermore, and more importantly, you have a problem here -- surface mounting the subpanel put you in a situation where the raceway needs to make an offset bend ("dog leg" or "S-bend") to get from a knockout in one panel to a knockout in the other. This is especially troublesome for you for two reasons:




          1. Conduit bends have a quite wide radius, especially for fat conduit like the 3" you are using

          2. Conduit bodies (including L bodies and pull elbows) must be openable without removing finish materials, just like you cannot drywall over a junction box


          Furthermore, that giant 3" nipple is going to cause issues if you flush-mount the subpanel (due to the fact that it will split any stud in the way clean in half). The idea of bringing it in via the front of the main panel doesn't work either, because that'd cause merry heck if the main panel's deadfront had to be removed later for servicing (in fact, I'd call it a violation of NEC 314.22's Exception).







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered 2 hours ago









          ThreePhaseEelThreePhaseEel

          31.3k114892




          31.3k114892













          • Please see new edited post picture of entire panels. It is permanent installation in that I won't add any raceway so there is no S bend problem, right?

            – Jtl
            2 hours ago






          • 1





            @Jtl -- can't do that -- individual wires must be part of a Chapter 3 wiring method, so that means "in a raceway" for all practical purposes

            – ThreePhaseEel
            1 hour ago











          • What would happen if they are not put in a raceway? See above more edited post where all covers are closed. So the cabinet can be said to be the main panel itself.

            – Jtl
            1 hour ago






          • 1





            @Jtl -- the raceway performs the role of a cable jacket in protecting the individual wires' insulation from external sources of physical damage. What's on the other side of the wall behind these cabinets, by the way?

            – ThreePhaseEel
            1 hour ago






          • 1





            @Jtl -- if you have the stuff to put holes through a cement wall, I'd go out the back of each panel into LBs on the other side of the wall and then conduit between the LBs

            – ThreePhaseEel
            1 hour ago



















          • Please see new edited post picture of entire panels. It is permanent installation in that I won't add any raceway so there is no S bend problem, right?

            – Jtl
            2 hours ago






          • 1





            @Jtl -- can't do that -- individual wires must be part of a Chapter 3 wiring method, so that means "in a raceway" for all practical purposes

            – ThreePhaseEel
            1 hour ago











          • What would happen if they are not put in a raceway? See above more edited post where all covers are closed. So the cabinet can be said to be the main panel itself.

            – Jtl
            1 hour ago






          • 1





            @Jtl -- the raceway performs the role of a cable jacket in protecting the individual wires' insulation from external sources of physical damage. What's on the other side of the wall behind these cabinets, by the way?

            – ThreePhaseEel
            1 hour ago






          • 1





            @Jtl -- if you have the stuff to put holes through a cement wall, I'd go out the back of each panel into LBs on the other side of the wall and then conduit between the LBs

            – ThreePhaseEel
            1 hour ago

















          Please see new edited post picture of entire panels. It is permanent installation in that I won't add any raceway so there is no S bend problem, right?

          – Jtl
          2 hours ago





          Please see new edited post picture of entire panels. It is permanent installation in that I won't add any raceway so there is no S bend problem, right?

          – Jtl
          2 hours ago




          1




          1





          @Jtl -- can't do that -- individual wires must be part of a Chapter 3 wiring method, so that means "in a raceway" for all practical purposes

          – ThreePhaseEel
          1 hour ago





          @Jtl -- can't do that -- individual wires must be part of a Chapter 3 wiring method, so that means "in a raceway" for all practical purposes

          – ThreePhaseEel
          1 hour ago













          What would happen if they are not put in a raceway? See above more edited post where all covers are closed. So the cabinet can be said to be the main panel itself.

          – Jtl
          1 hour ago





          What would happen if they are not put in a raceway? See above more edited post where all covers are closed. So the cabinet can be said to be the main panel itself.

          – Jtl
          1 hour ago




          1




          1





          @Jtl -- the raceway performs the role of a cable jacket in protecting the individual wires' insulation from external sources of physical damage. What's on the other side of the wall behind these cabinets, by the way?

          – ThreePhaseEel
          1 hour ago





          @Jtl -- the raceway performs the role of a cable jacket in protecting the individual wires' insulation from external sources of physical damage. What's on the other side of the wall behind these cabinets, by the way?

          – ThreePhaseEel
          1 hour ago




          1




          1





          @Jtl -- if you have the stuff to put holes through a cement wall, I'd go out the back of each panel into LBs on the other side of the wall and then conduit between the LBs

          – ThreePhaseEel
          1 hour ago





          @Jtl -- if you have the stuff to put holes through a cement wall, I'd go out the back of each panel into LBs on the other side of the wall and then conduit between the LBs

          – ThreePhaseEel
          1 hour ago













          2














          Another problem is that there is not legal work area around the panels, particularly the original panel. Placing them inside cabinets does not work unless the cabinets are quite shallow.



          I would say a whopper, however, is the lack of ability to put a lid on the main panel! Particularly it is impossible to reset any breaker without direct contact with hot components and the chance of tearing out a wire. This would get inspectors very, very excited in the U.S. and they would most likely revoke your building's occupancy permit on the spot. Any sort of arc flash that occurs in the panel could easily escape the panel and set the cabinets or their contents on fire. Have a bunch of rolls of paper towel, fwoof.



          Now the way I would tackle that is with the smaller knockouts on the side of the subpanel. Use those for five of your circuits (now I realize they are smaller wires in loom, not fat wires). Except I would use flexible metal conduit. Route them wherever feasible so you can access a proper entry point on the main panel. Or better, remove those circuits altogether from the main panel and have them join the armored cable in a junction box just below the main panel.



          For the feeder, I would plug the 3" hole with a conduit reducing washer designed for a much smaller conduit, say 1", and again use flexible metal conduit to a proper point of entry on the main panel.



          enter image description here



          And a minor detail, the extra wires tapping the main lugs are not correct. Since these are your lugs, you can simply stack on another lug, such as crimp lugs, which for such small wires are quite thin.



          enter image description here






          share|improve this answer


























          • Since the lid can't be used to cover it anymore. Then the lid would be the cabinet front cover so the entire cabinet can be considered the panel. It is shallow and no other things (like plates) would be put inside it. Also since the panel is not connected to any EGC, then I will treat the entire panel chassis as hot. Meaning, to touch it or close any breaker I will put on electrical gloves. Also there is a second disconnect at the right side. I turned if off first before touching or fixing the main panel. About arc flash. Maybe it's time to install AFCI. Hmm...

            – Jtl
            1 hour ago











          • Harper.Siemens finally tested their GFCI breaker and the bus bar.They said the gap between bus bar stub and spring clips is normal. See the gap imageshack.com/a/img922/278/d8qiHL.jpg They wrote me: "Sorry for the delay. Engineering has received new breakers from stock, which, when installed are configured the same as you have shown in the photos you sent with the angle on the connections. Engineering has tested & indicate contact is sufficient for proper function of the breakers." Harper, do u think it's good idea to transfer all the Siemens GFCI in the main panel since gap is normal?

            – Jtl
            50 mins ago
















          2














          Another problem is that there is not legal work area around the panels, particularly the original panel. Placing them inside cabinets does not work unless the cabinets are quite shallow.



          I would say a whopper, however, is the lack of ability to put a lid on the main panel! Particularly it is impossible to reset any breaker without direct contact with hot components and the chance of tearing out a wire. This would get inspectors very, very excited in the U.S. and they would most likely revoke your building's occupancy permit on the spot. Any sort of arc flash that occurs in the panel could easily escape the panel and set the cabinets or their contents on fire. Have a bunch of rolls of paper towel, fwoof.



          Now the way I would tackle that is with the smaller knockouts on the side of the subpanel. Use those for five of your circuits (now I realize they are smaller wires in loom, not fat wires). Except I would use flexible metal conduit. Route them wherever feasible so you can access a proper entry point on the main panel. Or better, remove those circuits altogether from the main panel and have them join the armored cable in a junction box just below the main panel.



          For the feeder, I would plug the 3" hole with a conduit reducing washer designed for a much smaller conduit, say 1", and again use flexible metal conduit to a proper point of entry on the main panel.



          enter image description here



          And a minor detail, the extra wires tapping the main lugs are not correct. Since these are your lugs, you can simply stack on another lug, such as crimp lugs, which for such small wires are quite thin.



          enter image description here






          share|improve this answer


























          • Since the lid can't be used to cover it anymore. Then the lid would be the cabinet front cover so the entire cabinet can be considered the panel. It is shallow and no other things (like plates) would be put inside it. Also since the panel is not connected to any EGC, then I will treat the entire panel chassis as hot. Meaning, to touch it or close any breaker I will put on electrical gloves. Also there is a second disconnect at the right side. I turned if off first before touching or fixing the main panel. About arc flash. Maybe it's time to install AFCI. Hmm...

            – Jtl
            1 hour ago











          • Harper.Siemens finally tested their GFCI breaker and the bus bar.They said the gap between bus bar stub and spring clips is normal. See the gap imageshack.com/a/img922/278/d8qiHL.jpg They wrote me: "Sorry for the delay. Engineering has received new breakers from stock, which, when installed are configured the same as you have shown in the photos you sent with the angle on the connections. Engineering has tested & indicate contact is sufficient for proper function of the breakers." Harper, do u think it's good idea to transfer all the Siemens GFCI in the main panel since gap is normal?

            – Jtl
            50 mins ago














          2












          2








          2







          Another problem is that there is not legal work area around the panels, particularly the original panel. Placing them inside cabinets does not work unless the cabinets are quite shallow.



          I would say a whopper, however, is the lack of ability to put a lid on the main panel! Particularly it is impossible to reset any breaker without direct contact with hot components and the chance of tearing out a wire. This would get inspectors very, very excited in the U.S. and they would most likely revoke your building's occupancy permit on the spot. Any sort of arc flash that occurs in the panel could easily escape the panel and set the cabinets or their contents on fire. Have a bunch of rolls of paper towel, fwoof.



          Now the way I would tackle that is with the smaller knockouts on the side of the subpanel. Use those for five of your circuits (now I realize they are smaller wires in loom, not fat wires). Except I would use flexible metal conduit. Route them wherever feasible so you can access a proper entry point on the main panel. Or better, remove those circuits altogether from the main panel and have them join the armored cable in a junction box just below the main panel.



          For the feeder, I would plug the 3" hole with a conduit reducing washer designed for a much smaller conduit, say 1", and again use flexible metal conduit to a proper point of entry on the main panel.



          enter image description here



          And a minor detail, the extra wires tapping the main lugs are not correct. Since these are your lugs, you can simply stack on another lug, such as crimp lugs, which for such small wires are quite thin.



          enter image description here






          share|improve this answer















          Another problem is that there is not legal work area around the panels, particularly the original panel. Placing them inside cabinets does not work unless the cabinets are quite shallow.



          I would say a whopper, however, is the lack of ability to put a lid on the main panel! Particularly it is impossible to reset any breaker without direct contact with hot components and the chance of tearing out a wire. This would get inspectors very, very excited in the U.S. and they would most likely revoke your building's occupancy permit on the spot. Any sort of arc flash that occurs in the panel could easily escape the panel and set the cabinets or their contents on fire. Have a bunch of rolls of paper towel, fwoof.



          Now the way I would tackle that is with the smaller knockouts on the side of the subpanel. Use those for five of your circuits (now I realize they are smaller wires in loom, not fat wires). Except I would use flexible metal conduit. Route them wherever feasible so you can access a proper entry point on the main panel. Or better, remove those circuits altogether from the main panel and have them join the armored cable in a junction box just below the main panel.



          For the feeder, I would plug the 3" hole with a conduit reducing washer designed for a much smaller conduit, say 1", and again use flexible metal conduit to a proper point of entry on the main panel.



          enter image description here



          And a minor detail, the extra wires tapping the main lugs are not correct. Since these are your lugs, you can simply stack on another lug, such as crimp lugs, which for such small wires are quite thin.



          enter image description here







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited 1 hour ago

























          answered 1 hour ago









          HarperHarper

          68.7k344140




          68.7k344140













          • Since the lid can't be used to cover it anymore. Then the lid would be the cabinet front cover so the entire cabinet can be considered the panel. It is shallow and no other things (like plates) would be put inside it. Also since the panel is not connected to any EGC, then I will treat the entire panel chassis as hot. Meaning, to touch it or close any breaker I will put on electrical gloves. Also there is a second disconnect at the right side. I turned if off first before touching or fixing the main panel. About arc flash. Maybe it's time to install AFCI. Hmm...

            – Jtl
            1 hour ago











          • Harper.Siemens finally tested their GFCI breaker and the bus bar.They said the gap between bus bar stub and spring clips is normal. See the gap imageshack.com/a/img922/278/d8qiHL.jpg They wrote me: "Sorry for the delay. Engineering has received new breakers from stock, which, when installed are configured the same as you have shown in the photos you sent with the angle on the connections. Engineering has tested & indicate contact is sufficient for proper function of the breakers." Harper, do u think it's good idea to transfer all the Siemens GFCI in the main panel since gap is normal?

            – Jtl
            50 mins ago



















          • Since the lid can't be used to cover it anymore. Then the lid would be the cabinet front cover so the entire cabinet can be considered the panel. It is shallow and no other things (like plates) would be put inside it. Also since the panel is not connected to any EGC, then I will treat the entire panel chassis as hot. Meaning, to touch it or close any breaker I will put on electrical gloves. Also there is a second disconnect at the right side. I turned if off first before touching or fixing the main panel. About arc flash. Maybe it's time to install AFCI. Hmm...

            – Jtl
            1 hour ago











          • Harper.Siemens finally tested their GFCI breaker and the bus bar.They said the gap between bus bar stub and spring clips is normal. See the gap imageshack.com/a/img922/278/d8qiHL.jpg They wrote me: "Sorry for the delay. Engineering has received new breakers from stock, which, when installed are configured the same as you have shown in the photos you sent with the angle on the connections. Engineering has tested & indicate contact is sufficient for proper function of the breakers." Harper, do u think it's good idea to transfer all the Siemens GFCI in the main panel since gap is normal?

            – Jtl
            50 mins ago

















          Since the lid can't be used to cover it anymore. Then the lid would be the cabinet front cover so the entire cabinet can be considered the panel. It is shallow and no other things (like plates) would be put inside it. Also since the panel is not connected to any EGC, then I will treat the entire panel chassis as hot. Meaning, to touch it or close any breaker I will put on electrical gloves. Also there is a second disconnect at the right side. I turned if off first before touching or fixing the main panel. About arc flash. Maybe it's time to install AFCI. Hmm...

          – Jtl
          1 hour ago





          Since the lid can't be used to cover it anymore. Then the lid would be the cabinet front cover so the entire cabinet can be considered the panel. It is shallow and no other things (like plates) would be put inside it. Also since the panel is not connected to any EGC, then I will treat the entire panel chassis as hot. Meaning, to touch it or close any breaker I will put on electrical gloves. Also there is a second disconnect at the right side. I turned if off first before touching or fixing the main panel. About arc flash. Maybe it's time to install AFCI. Hmm...

          – Jtl
          1 hour ago













          Harper.Siemens finally tested their GFCI breaker and the bus bar.They said the gap between bus bar stub and spring clips is normal. See the gap imageshack.com/a/img922/278/d8qiHL.jpg They wrote me: "Sorry for the delay. Engineering has received new breakers from stock, which, when installed are configured the same as you have shown in the photos you sent with the angle on the connections. Engineering has tested & indicate contact is sufficient for proper function of the breakers." Harper, do u think it's good idea to transfer all the Siemens GFCI in the main panel since gap is normal?

          – Jtl
          50 mins ago





          Harper.Siemens finally tested their GFCI breaker and the bus bar.They said the gap between bus bar stub and spring clips is normal. See the gap imageshack.com/a/img922/278/d8qiHL.jpg They wrote me: "Sorry for the delay. Engineering has received new breakers from stock, which, when installed are configured the same as you have shown in the photos you sent with the angle on the connections. Engineering has tested & indicate contact is sufficient for proper function of the breakers." Harper, do u think it's good idea to transfer all the Siemens GFCI in the main panel since gap is normal?

          – Jtl
          50 mins ago


















          draft saved

          draft discarded




















































          Thanks for contributing an answer to Home Improvement Stack Exchange!


          • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

          But avoid



          • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

          • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


          To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




          draft saved


          draft discarded














          StackExchange.ready(
          function () {
          StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fdiy.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f156429%2fis-this-6-circuits-inside-a-raceway-that-calls-for-50-deratement%23new-answer', 'question_page');
          }
          );

          Post as a guest















          Required, but never shown





















































          Required, but never shown














          Required, but never shown












          Required, but never shown







          Required, but never shown

































          Required, but never shown














          Required, but never shown












          Required, but never shown







          Required, but never shown







          Popular posts from this blog

          A CLEAN and SIMPLE way to add appendices to Table of Contents and bookmarks

          Calculate evaluation metrics using cross_val_predict sklearn

          Insert data from modal to MySQL (multiple modal on website)