Why aren't Republicans more focused on mobilizing a movement towards 'dethroning' Trump?
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This is not a question about the ideological implications of supporting or not supporting Trump. It is merely a question about the rational behavior (or lack thereof) of a political party when faced with certain facts.
And the facts are these. Donald Trump is monumentally unpopular. His disapproval rating has remained above 50 % (to be exact: an average of 52.1 % across multiple polls) for almost the entirety of his tenure - mind you that other presidents have had worse ratings by the end of their tenures, but nobody has had such bad ratings this early and this consistently as Donald Trump. This suggests that a majority of the population are fundamentally opposed to Trump, to the point where it is hard to see what could possibly change their stance when 2020 arrives.
Further, it may well be argued that a major reason for Trump's 2016 victory was his opposition: Hillary Clinton. An often unliked and untrusted career politician with a plethora of personal scandals, who caused a historical divide even amongst the left-leaning populace, to the point where statistics later revealed that 1 out of 10 Bernie Sanders supporters ... actually voted for Trump (no, seriously).
But will such a scenario repeat itself for 2020? Probably not, given the immense popularity of the most likely Democratic candidates, be that Elizabeth Warren, Beto O'Rourke, or Joe Biden.
With all that in mind, why does the Republican party not take steps to generate a movement against Trump, so that they can present a more viable candidate of their own for 2020? Is that not the rational thing to do? Trump is almost guaranteed to lose given the current state of affairs which, as argued above, differ significantly from 2016. Supporting him means giving up the most powerful political office in the world to your political opposition: is it not worth it to swallow your pride to avoid that outcome?
So why don't they? Is there political pressure not to from Trump himself? Is there a general lack of viable candidates in the first place? What rationale underlies their actions? Because as of right now, it seems the Republican party is by own volition taking the path towards defeat in 2020.
united-states donald-trump presidential-election republican-party
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This is not a question about the ideological implications of supporting or not supporting Trump. It is merely a question about the rational behavior (or lack thereof) of a political party when faced with certain facts.
And the facts are these. Donald Trump is monumentally unpopular. His disapproval rating has remained above 50 % (to be exact: an average of 52.1 % across multiple polls) for almost the entirety of his tenure - mind you that other presidents have had worse ratings by the end of their tenures, but nobody has had such bad ratings this early and this consistently as Donald Trump. This suggests that a majority of the population are fundamentally opposed to Trump, to the point where it is hard to see what could possibly change their stance when 2020 arrives.
Further, it may well be argued that a major reason for Trump's 2016 victory was his opposition: Hillary Clinton. An often unliked and untrusted career politician with a plethora of personal scandals, who caused a historical divide even amongst the left-leaning populace, to the point where statistics later revealed that 1 out of 10 Bernie Sanders supporters ... actually voted for Trump (no, seriously).
But will such a scenario repeat itself for 2020? Probably not, given the immense popularity of the most likely Democratic candidates, be that Elizabeth Warren, Beto O'Rourke, or Joe Biden.
With all that in mind, why does the Republican party not take steps to generate a movement against Trump, so that they can present a more viable candidate of their own for 2020? Is that not the rational thing to do? Trump is almost guaranteed to lose given the current state of affairs which, as argued above, differ significantly from 2016. Supporting him means giving up the most powerful political office in the world to your political opposition: is it not worth it to swallow your pride to avoid that outcome?
So why don't they? Is there political pressure not to from Trump himself? Is there a general lack of viable candidates in the first place? What rationale underlies their actions? Because as of right now, it seems the Republican party is by own volition taking the path towards defeat in 2020.
united-states donald-trump presidential-election republican-party
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"the immense popularity of the most likely Democratic candidates" - do you have evidence that Beto O'Rourke (or Warren for that matter) are "immensely popular" outside of narrow Progressive base of Democratic party? It seems somewhat debatable as an assertion.
– user4012
8 hours ago
11
There's a lot of begging the question in this question. The claim that Trump is "almost guaranteed to lose" is not supported, nor is the so-called "immense popularity" of potential Democrat candidates. One subjective statistic, the so-called disapproval rating, can't pull that much weight.
– Joe
7 hours ago
3
This question is making one big assumption, I think. It's not clear to me that the Republican Party has the organizational/logistical ability to mount a significant resistance to Trump at the present time, even if it wanted to.
– Michael W.
5 hours ago
4
Being monumentally unpopular with larger demographic groups that are not as motivated to vote vs cult-popular with smaller groups that are extremely motivated to vote is the confounding factor in this calculus.
– PoloHoleSet
4 hours ago
2
You made at least one giant illogical jump. "Disapproving" is not the same as "fundamentally opposed to Trump, to the point where it is hard to see what could possibly change their stance". How did you get from one to the other?
– ScottF
3 hours ago
|
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up vote
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This is not a question about the ideological implications of supporting or not supporting Trump. It is merely a question about the rational behavior (or lack thereof) of a political party when faced with certain facts.
And the facts are these. Donald Trump is monumentally unpopular. His disapproval rating has remained above 50 % (to be exact: an average of 52.1 % across multiple polls) for almost the entirety of his tenure - mind you that other presidents have had worse ratings by the end of their tenures, but nobody has had such bad ratings this early and this consistently as Donald Trump. This suggests that a majority of the population are fundamentally opposed to Trump, to the point where it is hard to see what could possibly change their stance when 2020 arrives.
Further, it may well be argued that a major reason for Trump's 2016 victory was his opposition: Hillary Clinton. An often unliked and untrusted career politician with a plethora of personal scandals, who caused a historical divide even amongst the left-leaning populace, to the point where statistics later revealed that 1 out of 10 Bernie Sanders supporters ... actually voted for Trump (no, seriously).
But will such a scenario repeat itself for 2020? Probably not, given the immense popularity of the most likely Democratic candidates, be that Elizabeth Warren, Beto O'Rourke, or Joe Biden.
With all that in mind, why does the Republican party not take steps to generate a movement against Trump, so that they can present a more viable candidate of their own for 2020? Is that not the rational thing to do? Trump is almost guaranteed to lose given the current state of affairs which, as argued above, differ significantly from 2016. Supporting him means giving up the most powerful political office in the world to your political opposition: is it not worth it to swallow your pride to avoid that outcome?
So why don't they? Is there political pressure not to from Trump himself? Is there a general lack of viable candidates in the first place? What rationale underlies their actions? Because as of right now, it seems the Republican party is by own volition taking the path towards defeat in 2020.
united-states donald-trump presidential-election republican-party
New contributor
This is not a question about the ideological implications of supporting or not supporting Trump. It is merely a question about the rational behavior (or lack thereof) of a political party when faced with certain facts.
And the facts are these. Donald Trump is monumentally unpopular. His disapproval rating has remained above 50 % (to be exact: an average of 52.1 % across multiple polls) for almost the entirety of his tenure - mind you that other presidents have had worse ratings by the end of their tenures, but nobody has had such bad ratings this early and this consistently as Donald Trump. This suggests that a majority of the population are fundamentally opposed to Trump, to the point where it is hard to see what could possibly change their stance when 2020 arrives.
Further, it may well be argued that a major reason for Trump's 2016 victory was his opposition: Hillary Clinton. An often unliked and untrusted career politician with a plethora of personal scandals, who caused a historical divide even amongst the left-leaning populace, to the point where statistics later revealed that 1 out of 10 Bernie Sanders supporters ... actually voted for Trump (no, seriously).
But will such a scenario repeat itself for 2020? Probably not, given the immense popularity of the most likely Democratic candidates, be that Elizabeth Warren, Beto O'Rourke, or Joe Biden.
With all that in mind, why does the Republican party not take steps to generate a movement against Trump, so that they can present a more viable candidate of their own for 2020? Is that not the rational thing to do? Trump is almost guaranteed to lose given the current state of affairs which, as argued above, differ significantly from 2016. Supporting him means giving up the most powerful political office in the world to your political opposition: is it not worth it to swallow your pride to avoid that outcome?
So why don't they? Is there political pressure not to from Trump himself? Is there a general lack of viable candidates in the first place? What rationale underlies their actions? Because as of right now, it seems the Republican party is by own volition taking the path towards defeat in 2020.
united-states donald-trump presidential-election republican-party
united-states donald-trump presidential-election republican-party
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"the immense popularity of the most likely Democratic candidates" - do you have evidence that Beto O'Rourke (or Warren for that matter) are "immensely popular" outside of narrow Progressive base of Democratic party? It seems somewhat debatable as an assertion.
– user4012
8 hours ago
11
There's a lot of begging the question in this question. The claim that Trump is "almost guaranteed to lose" is not supported, nor is the so-called "immense popularity" of potential Democrat candidates. One subjective statistic, the so-called disapproval rating, can't pull that much weight.
– Joe
7 hours ago
3
This question is making one big assumption, I think. It's not clear to me that the Republican Party has the organizational/logistical ability to mount a significant resistance to Trump at the present time, even if it wanted to.
– Michael W.
5 hours ago
4
Being monumentally unpopular with larger demographic groups that are not as motivated to vote vs cult-popular with smaller groups that are extremely motivated to vote is the confounding factor in this calculus.
– PoloHoleSet
4 hours ago
2
You made at least one giant illogical jump. "Disapproving" is not the same as "fundamentally opposed to Trump, to the point where it is hard to see what could possibly change their stance". How did you get from one to the other?
– ScottF
3 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
15
"the immense popularity of the most likely Democratic candidates" - do you have evidence that Beto O'Rourke (or Warren for that matter) are "immensely popular" outside of narrow Progressive base of Democratic party? It seems somewhat debatable as an assertion.
– user4012
8 hours ago
11
There's a lot of begging the question in this question. The claim that Trump is "almost guaranteed to lose" is not supported, nor is the so-called "immense popularity" of potential Democrat candidates. One subjective statistic, the so-called disapproval rating, can't pull that much weight.
– Joe
7 hours ago
3
This question is making one big assumption, I think. It's not clear to me that the Republican Party has the organizational/logistical ability to mount a significant resistance to Trump at the present time, even if it wanted to.
– Michael W.
5 hours ago
4
Being monumentally unpopular with larger demographic groups that are not as motivated to vote vs cult-popular with smaller groups that are extremely motivated to vote is the confounding factor in this calculus.
– PoloHoleSet
4 hours ago
2
You made at least one giant illogical jump. "Disapproving" is not the same as "fundamentally opposed to Trump, to the point where it is hard to see what could possibly change their stance". How did you get from one to the other?
– ScottF
3 hours ago
15
15
"the immense popularity of the most likely Democratic candidates" - do you have evidence that Beto O'Rourke (or Warren for that matter) are "immensely popular" outside of narrow Progressive base of Democratic party? It seems somewhat debatable as an assertion.
– user4012
8 hours ago
"the immense popularity of the most likely Democratic candidates" - do you have evidence that Beto O'Rourke (or Warren for that matter) are "immensely popular" outside of narrow Progressive base of Democratic party? It seems somewhat debatable as an assertion.
– user4012
8 hours ago
11
11
There's a lot of begging the question in this question. The claim that Trump is "almost guaranteed to lose" is not supported, nor is the so-called "immense popularity" of potential Democrat candidates. One subjective statistic, the so-called disapproval rating, can't pull that much weight.
– Joe
7 hours ago
There's a lot of begging the question in this question. The claim that Trump is "almost guaranteed to lose" is not supported, nor is the so-called "immense popularity" of potential Democrat candidates. One subjective statistic, the so-called disapproval rating, can't pull that much weight.
– Joe
7 hours ago
3
3
This question is making one big assumption, I think. It's not clear to me that the Republican Party has the organizational/logistical ability to mount a significant resistance to Trump at the present time, even if it wanted to.
– Michael W.
5 hours ago
This question is making one big assumption, I think. It's not clear to me that the Republican Party has the organizational/logistical ability to mount a significant resistance to Trump at the present time, even if it wanted to.
– Michael W.
5 hours ago
4
4
Being monumentally unpopular with larger demographic groups that are not as motivated to vote vs cult-popular with smaller groups that are extremely motivated to vote is the confounding factor in this calculus.
– PoloHoleSet
4 hours ago
Being monumentally unpopular with larger demographic groups that are not as motivated to vote vs cult-popular with smaller groups that are extremely motivated to vote is the confounding factor in this calculus.
– PoloHoleSet
4 hours ago
2
2
You made at least one giant illogical jump. "Disapproving" is not the same as "fundamentally opposed to Trump, to the point where it is hard to see what could possibly change their stance". How did you get from one to the other?
– ScottF
3 hours ago
You made at least one giant illogical jump. "Disapproving" is not the same as "fundamentally opposed to Trump, to the point where it is hard to see what could possibly change their stance". How did you get from one to the other?
– ScottF
3 hours ago
|
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It may seem like a tautology, but Trump is popular where he is popular. Such is the case with divisive figures. In order to remain in office, politicians in those areas where Trump is popular feel the need to heed the will of their own personal constiuency and embrace Trump.
To be fair, an opinion I share is that some of the popularity that Trump receives in no small part comes from how unpopular he is where he is in fact unpopular. That is to say that those who are ardent Trump supporters like him more because of who he upsets and how he goes about it. People running for office in these areas are more than likely going to embrace and hope to emulate the Trump presidential style because it makes them more popular where it actually matters for them. Someone running for congress from Oklahoma probably couldn't care less what Trump's poll numbers in California are. If he is popular in their district then they will continue to support him.
Further, according to the most recent Gallup Poll Trump maintains 89% job approval within the Republican party. By contrast, Barack Obama's job approval for Democrats in his last week in office was 95% which isn't too far above where Trump is. The two have drastically different approval ratings from Independents, with Trump having 39% most recently and Obama holding 61% in his last week.1
It is highly possible that the so-called "Never Trumpers" in the Republican party are in a tight spot, since they seem to be completely out of step with the rest of the Republican electorate. Many have already fled the Republican party which in cases of states with closed primaries means they have already abdicated any responsibility of helping the party choose the next nominee. Trump's style of always counter-attacking against perceived slights helps to keep all except the most outspoken against him in the party silent out of fear of retribution. This doesn't mean that those who approve of the job Trump is doing wouldn't support another Republican nominee more, but the current signs point to the Republican electorate being solidly behind Trump.
But will such a scenario repeat itself for 2020? Probably not, given the immense popularity of the most likely Democratic candidates, be that Elizabeth Warren, Beto O'Rourke, or Joe Biden.
I think you could be overestimating those politicians' overall popularity. Donald Trump wasn't supposed to be elected the first time around. I think you make a good point in that Clinton's unpopularity probably did help get him elected, but now that he's in office he is delivering on things that Republican voters want, so why would they switch?
1- For completeness, Trump has 6% job approval from Democrats and Obama had 14% from Republicans.
1
I think the clinch of Jeff's argument is interesting: " but now that he's in office he is delivering on things that Republican voters want, so why would they switch?" - rationally, he's not really delivering on things Republican voters want. There's no wall, and the bit that exists is being paid for by America, not Mexico. Funky things are happening to the economy and long term, low-class taxes are going up. Out of the 100 day plan, only a couple have actually been "fulfilled," factcheck.org/2017/04/100-day-action-plan-scorecard . But Trump doesn't need that to get votes...
– Caleb Jay
5 hours ago
4
@CalebJay There's no wall because of intransigence of Democrats, the "deep state" and "Never Trumpers" (as the argument would go). He has delivered a big tax cut as well as a conservative Supreme Court majority that could potentially last a generation (not to mention a large number of Federal judges confirmed through the Senate). The lack of legislative progress he can rightfully say isn't exactly his fault, because as President he doesn't pass laws (he only signs them).
– Jeff Lambert
5 hours ago
He can say to the Republican base that he is doing everything in his power, and those Republicans that don't support him enough are the ones who are at fault. What he hasn't passed through law he has done (or tried to do) through Executive Order as well as a large push for deregulation that certain industries will profit from.
– Jeff Lambert
5 hours ago
I agree with your point that to his voters, he appears to be doing all he can. Re: the reasoning for wall, I agree that it can be pitched as Democrats and never-Trumper's fault, but I argue that there is no wall for the reason there is no space elevator - a bunch of people saying "we should have this, and it's physically possible (theoretically) to build, so build it!" doesn't mean anything. Basically, that it was an unrealistic promise from the start.
– Caleb Jay
3 hours ago
"I think you could be overestimating those politicians' overall popularity. Donald Trump wasn't supposed to be elected the first time around" Clinton's favorability spread in 2016 was -12.6 points. Any candidate the DNC nominates in 2020 is likely to have a better favorability spread by possibly dozens of points. So I disagree with your theory that the 2020 candidates won't be substantially more popular than Clinton. realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president/… +1 anyway, though.
– John
3 hours ago
|
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Because polling data and Trump's approval rating do not tell the whole story.
As right-wing political commentator Ben Shapiro is fond of saying, two things can be true at once: It's entirely possible to both despise President Trump's character, bombastic personality, and divisive rhetoric AND simultaneously appreciate what he has done and is trying to accomplish policy-wise.
Consider the following:
- Trump's signature campaign promise was to get tough on illegal immigration, and he has done exactly that. Illegal immigration has always been a major concern for the right. Even though his "zero tolerance" policy is heavy-handed (or an outright human rights violation if you're on the left), it has sent a clear, unambiguous message to Central- and South American countries that the US/Mexico border is no longer an open thoroughfare for entering the United States illegally.
- The Tax Cuts and Jobs Act dramatically reduced corporate income taxes, which was previously the highest tax rate in the industrialized world. Regardless of whether you think this is good or bad for the economy, it has been a Republican policy wish for literally decades, and it finally got done under the Trump administration.
- The terrorist group ISIS, which was a major Middle East security concern that plagued the Obama administration, has nearly vanished from world headlines. The U.S. had a large role to play in that victory.
- US/Israeli relations are the best they've been in decades, and the Trump administration has been extremely friendly towards the Jewish state. Moving the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem is widely seen as huge positive step among conservatives and Israel's supporters -- especially among Christian conservatives. Other countries have since followed America's lead.
- Trump held a peace summit in Singapore with North- and South Korean leaders to discus nuclear disarmament of the Korean peninsula. It was the first time in history that North Korean and U.S. leaders have met face-to-face for talks. And while it remains to be seen what will come of them (North Korea has reneged on its promises in the past), it is nonetheless historic. North Korea has already destroyed some military outposts along the border, and has begun removing land mines from the DMZ.
- Trump has appointed and continues to nominate conservative judges to federal courts and to the U.S. Supreme Court. This is another campaign promise he has fulfilled. Conservatives who oppose Trump still enjoy the fact that the conservative tilt to the federal judiciary will outlast his legacy as president.
- Trump is constantly fighting back in the culture war. Despite his over-the-top rhetoric and criticism of "fake news", conservatives have been broadly troubled by left-wing identity politics and what they perceive to be pervasive liberal media bias for quite some time. This is the one place where Trump's rhetoric is a win for him politically among conservatives. Even many people on the right who don't support Trump's presidency tend to agree with him on this, even if they take everything he says with a grain of salt. Some conservatives argue that this reason alone is what got him elected in the first place.
Please note that this is not an overt argument in support of Trump. I am merely laying out the case for why conservatives specifically have not disowned him outright. If you could separate Trump's character and the garbage he craps out on Twitter from the way he has actually governed as President, his policy agenda and accomplishments to date read almost like a conservative dream come true.
Also note that there are a lot of policy disagreements among conservatives as well that work to temper their support; his belief in tariffs and his cozy disposition with world dictators are notable examples.
The bottom line is that, unlike with previous presidents, you can't conflate Trump's popularity and his performance as a governor. As it stands now (December, 2018), it does not appear likely that he will be reelected. But it all depends what happens between now and then, and on who the Democrats pony up for the 2020 race.
1) It never was and net migration from mexico is negative. 2) false. 3) Not Trump, but yes the US. 4) false. (they do love the move of the embassy, but not much else). 5) mostly true. 6) true (Although I would say it's a terrible thing). 7) what ??? This isn't close to reality. This is just a Republican talking point.
– xyious
3 hours ago
2
@xyious; Please clarify. 1) what never was? And what part of statement 2 is false? Aside from that, the OP wants to know the conservative viewpoint, so disagreement with anything on the list -- especially "Republican talking points" are irrelevant because those talking points are specifically what the OP was asking about. For example, #3. Doesn't matter if it was Trump or not; only that conservatives believe it was.
– Wes Sayeed
2 hours ago
@xyious This answer is addressing the question with specifics. The accuracy and spin of the claims being made are not being discussed, just whether or not it is a claim Republicans agree with or use when defending a vote for Trump. And, just to clarify a side note, voters don't care about net migration. Republicans, in general, don't even really care about migration. They are opposed to illegal aliens coming to the US. A very important distinction.
– David S
2 hours ago
@xyious Nowhere does it say that voters must vote based on reality....
– user3067860
1 hour ago
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6
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There's an old English proverb that goes, "In for a penny, in for a pound." It is an example of the sunk cost fallacy, basically saying that once we put some effort/money/worthwhile thing into a cause that we can't easily reverse, our tendency is to follow through to the end, for fear of 'wasting' that initial effort/money/worthwhile thing.
The Republicans spent boatloads of political capital and trashed decades of a good reputation for Trump when they saw he could get the things that they wanted from government, and he's been fairly successful at doing so. Unfortunately, Trump, like any good mob boss, requires loyalty and a willingness to get dirty on his behalf, and treats anyone who voices disagreement as an enemy. And as the midterms show, Republican enemies of Trump don't get re-elected. And as for getting dirty on his behalf? There seem to be plenty willing to do so.
So where does that leave us at? The Republicans aren't going to give up on Trump en masse, because that would mean that several of them will likely be charged as accessories to one or more crimes. And they're the only ones with the power to prevent that ending.
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There's no hard proof for "why", but the following are all reasons stated at one time or another. They aren't mutually exclusive.
High level Republicans don't want to antagonize Trump due to negative consequences from him.
High level Republicans don't want to antagonize Trump due to negative consequences from their electorate who are Trump supporters.
High level Republicans don't want to antagonize Trump due to negative consequences to the party from infighting. Both as far as morale, and opportunity cost (an hour/a dollar spent infighting is an hour/a dollar not spent opposing the other party).
Inevitability. Trump demonstrated that he can beat any even most formidable R opponents in primaries in 2016. It may very well be that people just take it for granted he's inevitably going to win 2020 primaries, so why spit upwind?
Trump actually delivered on many things (see Wes Sayeed's excellent answer for a list). Arguably, more and more important things than R presidents before him. Bush may not have had any scandals and got re-elected, but what exactly did the conservatives get out of it as far as political achievements? (good question to ask on this site, but my impression is "not much in second term").
To paraphrase, if:
P(T,E) = "probability of Trump winning general election"
P(T,A) = "probability of Trump delivering things Rs want"
P(R,E) = "probability of Trump replacement winning general election"
P(R,A) = "probability of replacement delivering R agenda"
the calculation is as follows: is
P(T,E) * P(T,A) < P(R,E) * P(R,A)
?
While you can make legitimate arguments that P(T,E) is less than P(R,E) (someone else is less likely to lose a general election), you can ALSO make a legitimate argument that P(T,A) is far bigger than P(R,A) - some RINO Republican like Romney governing like Democrat Lite wouldn't really be much of a win for Republicans as far as agenda.
Somewhat linked with 4, there are downsides to a non-Trump Republican winning 2020 General elections.
Due to reversion to the mean, that would almost guaranteed assure 2024 Democrat win (and 2022 Democrat midterm win). Conversely, Democrat winning in 2020 may cause that to revert ala 2014.
Having an effective (as far as delivering agenda) R President is obviously worth such downsides.
Having an ineffective R president may not be.
Trump demonstrated in practice that he can win. So, while you can make reasonable argument that he'd be more likely to lose in 2020 than 2016, you can also make reasonable arguments that he will manage to win 2020 more than a competing R candidate despite his weaknesses.
2
I'm curious as to what you think Trump has actually delivered on. As far as I can see, most of what he's done that either hasn't been blocked by the courts, or that (like trade wars) he hasn't backtracked on are unpopular with the majority of voters. (Of course you have to stick to what he's actually done, not his inflated claims or outright lies.)
– jamesqf
6 hours ago
@jamesqf - see Wes Sayeed's excellent answer.
– user4012
5 hours ago
add a comment |
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Because they can't credibly convert Trump supporters.
The popular narrative is that Donald Trump's election represents some sort of "whitelash" against Democrats, Obama supporters, human decency, etc. But rich racist white people voted for Romney and McCain too.
Trump clearly won on the backs of working-class voters. Of pretty much all races (outperformed the last two Republican candidates among both Hispanics and African Americans). How an outsider managed to capture such a large and valuable demographic is an interesting question in it's own right, but I'll give you the Occam's Razor: that demo was being ignored by both major political parties.
Think about it. 50 years ago pretty much all e.g. sitcoms were about working class people. 20 years ago most still were. Now almost none of them are. Those people have gradually been excluded from cultural relevance. Jobs have moved, towns have died. Industries have changed. If anyone in Washington cares, it's awfully hard to see it from podunk.
Now along comes this guy who says hey I'm for you, I'm going to fight for you, I'm going to focus on you unlike these other yahoos...
And the sad part, for those who don't like President Trump, is that nothing, nothing has changed about that dynamic since the election. Trump is still the king of his domain. Democrats aren't even an also-ran. They haven't made the first attempt to court those people. They have dismissed them as racists and/or opioid addicts. And there are plenty of Republicans who are going to say eh, I don't like him but I'd still vote for him ahead of the other side.
3
He outperformed the last two candidates with African Americans but underperformed all of the previous republican candidates. It's almost like the two elections with Obama had something different about them...
– David Rice
4 hours ago
1
He certainly got up there and said that, yes. But now he has to deliver on it. And so far, mostly what he's delivered is tax cuts to his super-rich friends, and trying to take away the health cover which was the most tangible thing Obama contributed to the working class. As predicted by so many people, he's just another millionaire saying "I'm one of the ordinary people".
– Graham
3 hours ago
1
It's weird how these working class people are voting for a (likely) billionaire that doesn't empathize with them in any way. He ran on taking away their healthcare, and really tried to do it. He ran on lowering taxes for the rich and corporations and he has delivered. The only thing he really said he would improve for working class americans is coal jobs, which he failed (and will continue to fail to) bring back. Nothing else that he does or wants to do will benefit them in any way.
– xyious
3 hours ago
There's no explaining the primaries and his winning (other than a glut of opponents splitting the votes between them), but he won the general election also in large part because of 'hold-your-nose' support from single issue pro-lifers
– NKCampbell
2 hours ago
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It may seem like a tautology, but Trump is popular where he is popular. Such is the case with divisive figures. In order to remain in office, politicians in those areas where Trump is popular feel the need to heed the will of their own personal constiuency and embrace Trump.
To be fair, an opinion I share is that some of the popularity that Trump receives in no small part comes from how unpopular he is where he is in fact unpopular. That is to say that those who are ardent Trump supporters like him more because of who he upsets and how he goes about it. People running for office in these areas are more than likely going to embrace and hope to emulate the Trump presidential style because it makes them more popular where it actually matters for them. Someone running for congress from Oklahoma probably couldn't care less what Trump's poll numbers in California are. If he is popular in their district then they will continue to support him.
Further, according to the most recent Gallup Poll Trump maintains 89% job approval within the Republican party. By contrast, Barack Obama's job approval for Democrats in his last week in office was 95% which isn't too far above where Trump is. The two have drastically different approval ratings from Independents, with Trump having 39% most recently and Obama holding 61% in his last week.1
It is highly possible that the so-called "Never Trumpers" in the Republican party are in a tight spot, since they seem to be completely out of step with the rest of the Republican electorate. Many have already fled the Republican party which in cases of states with closed primaries means they have already abdicated any responsibility of helping the party choose the next nominee. Trump's style of always counter-attacking against perceived slights helps to keep all except the most outspoken against him in the party silent out of fear of retribution. This doesn't mean that those who approve of the job Trump is doing wouldn't support another Republican nominee more, but the current signs point to the Republican electorate being solidly behind Trump.
But will such a scenario repeat itself for 2020? Probably not, given the immense popularity of the most likely Democratic candidates, be that Elizabeth Warren, Beto O'Rourke, or Joe Biden.
I think you could be overestimating those politicians' overall popularity. Donald Trump wasn't supposed to be elected the first time around. I think you make a good point in that Clinton's unpopularity probably did help get him elected, but now that he's in office he is delivering on things that Republican voters want, so why would they switch?
1- For completeness, Trump has 6% job approval from Democrats and Obama had 14% from Republicans.
1
I think the clinch of Jeff's argument is interesting: " but now that he's in office he is delivering on things that Republican voters want, so why would they switch?" - rationally, he's not really delivering on things Republican voters want. There's no wall, and the bit that exists is being paid for by America, not Mexico. Funky things are happening to the economy and long term, low-class taxes are going up. Out of the 100 day plan, only a couple have actually been "fulfilled," factcheck.org/2017/04/100-day-action-plan-scorecard . But Trump doesn't need that to get votes...
– Caleb Jay
5 hours ago
4
@CalebJay There's no wall because of intransigence of Democrats, the "deep state" and "Never Trumpers" (as the argument would go). He has delivered a big tax cut as well as a conservative Supreme Court majority that could potentially last a generation (not to mention a large number of Federal judges confirmed through the Senate). The lack of legislative progress he can rightfully say isn't exactly his fault, because as President he doesn't pass laws (he only signs them).
– Jeff Lambert
5 hours ago
He can say to the Republican base that he is doing everything in his power, and those Republicans that don't support him enough are the ones who are at fault. What he hasn't passed through law he has done (or tried to do) through Executive Order as well as a large push for deregulation that certain industries will profit from.
– Jeff Lambert
5 hours ago
I agree with your point that to his voters, he appears to be doing all he can. Re: the reasoning for wall, I agree that it can be pitched as Democrats and never-Trumper's fault, but I argue that there is no wall for the reason there is no space elevator - a bunch of people saying "we should have this, and it's physically possible (theoretically) to build, so build it!" doesn't mean anything. Basically, that it was an unrealistic promise from the start.
– Caleb Jay
3 hours ago
"I think you could be overestimating those politicians' overall popularity. Donald Trump wasn't supposed to be elected the first time around" Clinton's favorability spread in 2016 was -12.6 points. Any candidate the DNC nominates in 2020 is likely to have a better favorability spread by possibly dozens of points. So I disagree with your theory that the 2020 candidates won't be substantially more popular than Clinton. realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president/… +1 anyway, though.
– John
3 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
up vote
15
down vote
It may seem like a tautology, but Trump is popular where he is popular. Such is the case with divisive figures. In order to remain in office, politicians in those areas where Trump is popular feel the need to heed the will of their own personal constiuency and embrace Trump.
To be fair, an opinion I share is that some of the popularity that Trump receives in no small part comes from how unpopular he is where he is in fact unpopular. That is to say that those who are ardent Trump supporters like him more because of who he upsets and how he goes about it. People running for office in these areas are more than likely going to embrace and hope to emulate the Trump presidential style because it makes them more popular where it actually matters for them. Someone running for congress from Oklahoma probably couldn't care less what Trump's poll numbers in California are. If he is popular in their district then they will continue to support him.
Further, according to the most recent Gallup Poll Trump maintains 89% job approval within the Republican party. By contrast, Barack Obama's job approval for Democrats in his last week in office was 95% which isn't too far above where Trump is. The two have drastically different approval ratings from Independents, with Trump having 39% most recently and Obama holding 61% in his last week.1
It is highly possible that the so-called "Never Trumpers" in the Republican party are in a tight spot, since they seem to be completely out of step with the rest of the Republican electorate. Many have already fled the Republican party which in cases of states with closed primaries means they have already abdicated any responsibility of helping the party choose the next nominee. Trump's style of always counter-attacking against perceived slights helps to keep all except the most outspoken against him in the party silent out of fear of retribution. This doesn't mean that those who approve of the job Trump is doing wouldn't support another Republican nominee more, but the current signs point to the Republican electorate being solidly behind Trump.
But will such a scenario repeat itself for 2020? Probably not, given the immense popularity of the most likely Democratic candidates, be that Elizabeth Warren, Beto O'Rourke, or Joe Biden.
I think you could be overestimating those politicians' overall popularity. Donald Trump wasn't supposed to be elected the first time around. I think you make a good point in that Clinton's unpopularity probably did help get him elected, but now that he's in office he is delivering on things that Republican voters want, so why would they switch?
1- For completeness, Trump has 6% job approval from Democrats and Obama had 14% from Republicans.
1
I think the clinch of Jeff's argument is interesting: " but now that he's in office he is delivering on things that Republican voters want, so why would they switch?" - rationally, he's not really delivering on things Republican voters want. There's no wall, and the bit that exists is being paid for by America, not Mexico. Funky things are happening to the economy and long term, low-class taxes are going up. Out of the 100 day plan, only a couple have actually been "fulfilled," factcheck.org/2017/04/100-day-action-plan-scorecard . But Trump doesn't need that to get votes...
– Caleb Jay
5 hours ago
4
@CalebJay There's no wall because of intransigence of Democrats, the "deep state" and "Never Trumpers" (as the argument would go). He has delivered a big tax cut as well as a conservative Supreme Court majority that could potentially last a generation (not to mention a large number of Federal judges confirmed through the Senate). The lack of legislative progress he can rightfully say isn't exactly his fault, because as President he doesn't pass laws (he only signs them).
– Jeff Lambert
5 hours ago
He can say to the Republican base that he is doing everything in his power, and those Republicans that don't support him enough are the ones who are at fault. What he hasn't passed through law he has done (or tried to do) through Executive Order as well as a large push for deregulation that certain industries will profit from.
– Jeff Lambert
5 hours ago
I agree with your point that to his voters, he appears to be doing all he can. Re: the reasoning for wall, I agree that it can be pitched as Democrats and never-Trumper's fault, but I argue that there is no wall for the reason there is no space elevator - a bunch of people saying "we should have this, and it's physically possible (theoretically) to build, so build it!" doesn't mean anything. Basically, that it was an unrealistic promise from the start.
– Caleb Jay
3 hours ago
"I think you could be overestimating those politicians' overall popularity. Donald Trump wasn't supposed to be elected the first time around" Clinton's favorability spread in 2016 was -12.6 points. Any candidate the DNC nominates in 2020 is likely to have a better favorability spread by possibly dozens of points. So I disagree with your theory that the 2020 candidates won't be substantially more popular than Clinton. realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president/… +1 anyway, though.
– John
3 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
up vote
15
down vote
up vote
15
down vote
It may seem like a tautology, but Trump is popular where he is popular. Such is the case with divisive figures. In order to remain in office, politicians in those areas where Trump is popular feel the need to heed the will of their own personal constiuency and embrace Trump.
To be fair, an opinion I share is that some of the popularity that Trump receives in no small part comes from how unpopular he is where he is in fact unpopular. That is to say that those who are ardent Trump supporters like him more because of who he upsets and how he goes about it. People running for office in these areas are more than likely going to embrace and hope to emulate the Trump presidential style because it makes them more popular where it actually matters for them. Someone running for congress from Oklahoma probably couldn't care less what Trump's poll numbers in California are. If he is popular in their district then they will continue to support him.
Further, according to the most recent Gallup Poll Trump maintains 89% job approval within the Republican party. By contrast, Barack Obama's job approval for Democrats in his last week in office was 95% which isn't too far above where Trump is. The two have drastically different approval ratings from Independents, with Trump having 39% most recently and Obama holding 61% in his last week.1
It is highly possible that the so-called "Never Trumpers" in the Republican party are in a tight spot, since they seem to be completely out of step with the rest of the Republican electorate. Many have already fled the Republican party which in cases of states with closed primaries means they have already abdicated any responsibility of helping the party choose the next nominee. Trump's style of always counter-attacking against perceived slights helps to keep all except the most outspoken against him in the party silent out of fear of retribution. This doesn't mean that those who approve of the job Trump is doing wouldn't support another Republican nominee more, but the current signs point to the Republican electorate being solidly behind Trump.
But will such a scenario repeat itself for 2020? Probably not, given the immense popularity of the most likely Democratic candidates, be that Elizabeth Warren, Beto O'Rourke, or Joe Biden.
I think you could be overestimating those politicians' overall popularity. Donald Trump wasn't supposed to be elected the first time around. I think you make a good point in that Clinton's unpopularity probably did help get him elected, but now that he's in office he is delivering on things that Republican voters want, so why would they switch?
1- For completeness, Trump has 6% job approval from Democrats and Obama had 14% from Republicans.
It may seem like a tautology, but Trump is popular where he is popular. Such is the case with divisive figures. In order to remain in office, politicians in those areas where Trump is popular feel the need to heed the will of their own personal constiuency and embrace Trump.
To be fair, an opinion I share is that some of the popularity that Trump receives in no small part comes from how unpopular he is where he is in fact unpopular. That is to say that those who are ardent Trump supporters like him more because of who he upsets and how he goes about it. People running for office in these areas are more than likely going to embrace and hope to emulate the Trump presidential style because it makes them more popular where it actually matters for them. Someone running for congress from Oklahoma probably couldn't care less what Trump's poll numbers in California are. If he is popular in their district then they will continue to support him.
Further, according to the most recent Gallup Poll Trump maintains 89% job approval within the Republican party. By contrast, Barack Obama's job approval for Democrats in his last week in office was 95% which isn't too far above where Trump is. The two have drastically different approval ratings from Independents, with Trump having 39% most recently and Obama holding 61% in his last week.1
It is highly possible that the so-called "Never Trumpers" in the Republican party are in a tight spot, since they seem to be completely out of step with the rest of the Republican electorate. Many have already fled the Republican party which in cases of states with closed primaries means they have already abdicated any responsibility of helping the party choose the next nominee. Trump's style of always counter-attacking against perceived slights helps to keep all except the most outspoken against him in the party silent out of fear of retribution. This doesn't mean that those who approve of the job Trump is doing wouldn't support another Republican nominee more, but the current signs point to the Republican electorate being solidly behind Trump.
But will such a scenario repeat itself for 2020? Probably not, given the immense popularity of the most likely Democratic candidates, be that Elizabeth Warren, Beto O'Rourke, or Joe Biden.
I think you could be overestimating those politicians' overall popularity. Donald Trump wasn't supposed to be elected the first time around. I think you make a good point in that Clinton's unpopularity probably did help get him elected, but now that he's in office he is delivering on things that Republican voters want, so why would they switch?
1- For completeness, Trump has 6% job approval from Democrats and Obama had 14% from Republicans.
answered 7 hours ago
Jeff Lambert
7,58942343
7,58942343
1
I think the clinch of Jeff's argument is interesting: " but now that he's in office he is delivering on things that Republican voters want, so why would they switch?" - rationally, he's not really delivering on things Republican voters want. There's no wall, and the bit that exists is being paid for by America, not Mexico. Funky things are happening to the economy and long term, low-class taxes are going up. Out of the 100 day plan, only a couple have actually been "fulfilled," factcheck.org/2017/04/100-day-action-plan-scorecard . But Trump doesn't need that to get votes...
– Caleb Jay
5 hours ago
4
@CalebJay There's no wall because of intransigence of Democrats, the "deep state" and "Never Trumpers" (as the argument would go). He has delivered a big tax cut as well as a conservative Supreme Court majority that could potentially last a generation (not to mention a large number of Federal judges confirmed through the Senate). The lack of legislative progress he can rightfully say isn't exactly his fault, because as President he doesn't pass laws (he only signs them).
– Jeff Lambert
5 hours ago
He can say to the Republican base that he is doing everything in his power, and those Republicans that don't support him enough are the ones who are at fault. What he hasn't passed through law he has done (or tried to do) through Executive Order as well as a large push for deregulation that certain industries will profit from.
– Jeff Lambert
5 hours ago
I agree with your point that to his voters, he appears to be doing all he can. Re: the reasoning for wall, I agree that it can be pitched as Democrats and never-Trumper's fault, but I argue that there is no wall for the reason there is no space elevator - a bunch of people saying "we should have this, and it's physically possible (theoretically) to build, so build it!" doesn't mean anything. Basically, that it was an unrealistic promise from the start.
– Caleb Jay
3 hours ago
"I think you could be overestimating those politicians' overall popularity. Donald Trump wasn't supposed to be elected the first time around" Clinton's favorability spread in 2016 was -12.6 points. Any candidate the DNC nominates in 2020 is likely to have a better favorability spread by possibly dozens of points. So I disagree with your theory that the 2020 candidates won't be substantially more popular than Clinton. realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president/… +1 anyway, though.
– John
3 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
1
I think the clinch of Jeff's argument is interesting: " but now that he's in office he is delivering on things that Republican voters want, so why would they switch?" - rationally, he's not really delivering on things Republican voters want. There's no wall, and the bit that exists is being paid for by America, not Mexico. Funky things are happening to the economy and long term, low-class taxes are going up. Out of the 100 day plan, only a couple have actually been "fulfilled," factcheck.org/2017/04/100-day-action-plan-scorecard . But Trump doesn't need that to get votes...
– Caleb Jay
5 hours ago
4
@CalebJay There's no wall because of intransigence of Democrats, the "deep state" and "Never Trumpers" (as the argument would go). He has delivered a big tax cut as well as a conservative Supreme Court majority that could potentially last a generation (not to mention a large number of Federal judges confirmed through the Senate). The lack of legislative progress he can rightfully say isn't exactly his fault, because as President he doesn't pass laws (he only signs them).
– Jeff Lambert
5 hours ago
He can say to the Republican base that he is doing everything in his power, and those Republicans that don't support him enough are the ones who are at fault. What he hasn't passed through law he has done (or tried to do) through Executive Order as well as a large push for deregulation that certain industries will profit from.
– Jeff Lambert
5 hours ago
I agree with your point that to his voters, he appears to be doing all he can. Re: the reasoning for wall, I agree that it can be pitched as Democrats and never-Trumper's fault, but I argue that there is no wall for the reason there is no space elevator - a bunch of people saying "we should have this, and it's physically possible (theoretically) to build, so build it!" doesn't mean anything. Basically, that it was an unrealistic promise from the start.
– Caleb Jay
3 hours ago
"I think you could be overestimating those politicians' overall popularity. Donald Trump wasn't supposed to be elected the first time around" Clinton's favorability spread in 2016 was -12.6 points. Any candidate the DNC nominates in 2020 is likely to have a better favorability spread by possibly dozens of points. So I disagree with your theory that the 2020 candidates won't be substantially more popular than Clinton. realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president/… +1 anyway, though.
– John
3 hours ago
1
1
I think the clinch of Jeff's argument is interesting: " but now that he's in office he is delivering on things that Republican voters want, so why would they switch?" - rationally, he's not really delivering on things Republican voters want. There's no wall, and the bit that exists is being paid for by America, not Mexico. Funky things are happening to the economy and long term, low-class taxes are going up. Out of the 100 day plan, only a couple have actually been "fulfilled," factcheck.org/2017/04/100-day-action-plan-scorecard . But Trump doesn't need that to get votes...
– Caleb Jay
5 hours ago
I think the clinch of Jeff's argument is interesting: " but now that he's in office he is delivering on things that Republican voters want, so why would they switch?" - rationally, he's not really delivering on things Republican voters want. There's no wall, and the bit that exists is being paid for by America, not Mexico. Funky things are happening to the economy and long term, low-class taxes are going up. Out of the 100 day plan, only a couple have actually been "fulfilled," factcheck.org/2017/04/100-day-action-plan-scorecard . But Trump doesn't need that to get votes...
– Caleb Jay
5 hours ago
4
4
@CalebJay There's no wall because of intransigence of Democrats, the "deep state" and "Never Trumpers" (as the argument would go). He has delivered a big tax cut as well as a conservative Supreme Court majority that could potentially last a generation (not to mention a large number of Federal judges confirmed through the Senate). The lack of legislative progress he can rightfully say isn't exactly his fault, because as President he doesn't pass laws (he only signs them).
– Jeff Lambert
5 hours ago
@CalebJay There's no wall because of intransigence of Democrats, the "deep state" and "Never Trumpers" (as the argument would go). He has delivered a big tax cut as well as a conservative Supreme Court majority that could potentially last a generation (not to mention a large number of Federal judges confirmed through the Senate). The lack of legislative progress he can rightfully say isn't exactly his fault, because as President he doesn't pass laws (he only signs them).
– Jeff Lambert
5 hours ago
He can say to the Republican base that he is doing everything in his power, and those Republicans that don't support him enough are the ones who are at fault. What he hasn't passed through law he has done (or tried to do) through Executive Order as well as a large push for deregulation that certain industries will profit from.
– Jeff Lambert
5 hours ago
He can say to the Republican base that he is doing everything in his power, and those Republicans that don't support him enough are the ones who are at fault. What he hasn't passed through law he has done (or tried to do) through Executive Order as well as a large push for deregulation that certain industries will profit from.
– Jeff Lambert
5 hours ago
I agree with your point that to his voters, he appears to be doing all he can. Re: the reasoning for wall, I agree that it can be pitched as Democrats and never-Trumper's fault, but I argue that there is no wall for the reason there is no space elevator - a bunch of people saying "we should have this, and it's physically possible (theoretically) to build, so build it!" doesn't mean anything. Basically, that it was an unrealistic promise from the start.
– Caleb Jay
3 hours ago
I agree with your point that to his voters, he appears to be doing all he can. Re: the reasoning for wall, I agree that it can be pitched as Democrats and never-Trumper's fault, but I argue that there is no wall for the reason there is no space elevator - a bunch of people saying "we should have this, and it's physically possible (theoretically) to build, so build it!" doesn't mean anything. Basically, that it was an unrealistic promise from the start.
– Caleb Jay
3 hours ago
"I think you could be overestimating those politicians' overall popularity. Donald Trump wasn't supposed to be elected the first time around" Clinton's favorability spread in 2016 was -12.6 points. Any candidate the DNC nominates in 2020 is likely to have a better favorability spread by possibly dozens of points. So I disagree with your theory that the 2020 candidates won't be substantially more popular than Clinton. realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president/… +1 anyway, though.
– John
3 hours ago
"I think you could be overestimating those politicians' overall popularity. Donald Trump wasn't supposed to be elected the first time around" Clinton's favorability spread in 2016 was -12.6 points. Any candidate the DNC nominates in 2020 is likely to have a better favorability spread by possibly dozens of points. So I disagree with your theory that the 2020 candidates won't be substantially more popular than Clinton. realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president/… +1 anyway, though.
– John
3 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
up vote
9
down vote
Because polling data and Trump's approval rating do not tell the whole story.
As right-wing political commentator Ben Shapiro is fond of saying, two things can be true at once: It's entirely possible to both despise President Trump's character, bombastic personality, and divisive rhetoric AND simultaneously appreciate what he has done and is trying to accomplish policy-wise.
Consider the following:
- Trump's signature campaign promise was to get tough on illegal immigration, and he has done exactly that. Illegal immigration has always been a major concern for the right. Even though his "zero tolerance" policy is heavy-handed (or an outright human rights violation if you're on the left), it has sent a clear, unambiguous message to Central- and South American countries that the US/Mexico border is no longer an open thoroughfare for entering the United States illegally.
- The Tax Cuts and Jobs Act dramatically reduced corporate income taxes, which was previously the highest tax rate in the industrialized world. Regardless of whether you think this is good or bad for the economy, it has been a Republican policy wish for literally decades, and it finally got done under the Trump administration.
- The terrorist group ISIS, which was a major Middle East security concern that plagued the Obama administration, has nearly vanished from world headlines. The U.S. had a large role to play in that victory.
- US/Israeli relations are the best they've been in decades, and the Trump administration has been extremely friendly towards the Jewish state. Moving the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem is widely seen as huge positive step among conservatives and Israel's supporters -- especially among Christian conservatives. Other countries have since followed America's lead.
- Trump held a peace summit in Singapore with North- and South Korean leaders to discus nuclear disarmament of the Korean peninsula. It was the first time in history that North Korean and U.S. leaders have met face-to-face for talks. And while it remains to be seen what will come of them (North Korea has reneged on its promises in the past), it is nonetheless historic. North Korea has already destroyed some military outposts along the border, and has begun removing land mines from the DMZ.
- Trump has appointed and continues to nominate conservative judges to federal courts and to the U.S. Supreme Court. This is another campaign promise he has fulfilled. Conservatives who oppose Trump still enjoy the fact that the conservative tilt to the federal judiciary will outlast his legacy as president.
- Trump is constantly fighting back in the culture war. Despite his over-the-top rhetoric and criticism of "fake news", conservatives have been broadly troubled by left-wing identity politics and what they perceive to be pervasive liberal media bias for quite some time. This is the one place where Trump's rhetoric is a win for him politically among conservatives. Even many people on the right who don't support Trump's presidency tend to agree with him on this, even if they take everything he says with a grain of salt. Some conservatives argue that this reason alone is what got him elected in the first place.
Please note that this is not an overt argument in support of Trump. I am merely laying out the case for why conservatives specifically have not disowned him outright. If you could separate Trump's character and the garbage he craps out on Twitter from the way he has actually governed as President, his policy agenda and accomplishments to date read almost like a conservative dream come true.
Also note that there are a lot of policy disagreements among conservatives as well that work to temper their support; his belief in tariffs and his cozy disposition with world dictators are notable examples.
The bottom line is that, unlike with previous presidents, you can't conflate Trump's popularity and his performance as a governor. As it stands now (December, 2018), it does not appear likely that he will be reelected. But it all depends what happens between now and then, and on who the Democrats pony up for the 2020 race.
1) It never was and net migration from mexico is negative. 2) false. 3) Not Trump, but yes the US. 4) false. (they do love the move of the embassy, but not much else). 5) mostly true. 6) true (Although I would say it's a terrible thing). 7) what ??? This isn't close to reality. This is just a Republican talking point.
– xyious
3 hours ago
2
@xyious; Please clarify. 1) what never was? And what part of statement 2 is false? Aside from that, the OP wants to know the conservative viewpoint, so disagreement with anything on the list -- especially "Republican talking points" are irrelevant because those talking points are specifically what the OP was asking about. For example, #3. Doesn't matter if it was Trump or not; only that conservatives believe it was.
– Wes Sayeed
2 hours ago
@xyious This answer is addressing the question with specifics. The accuracy and spin of the claims being made are not being discussed, just whether or not it is a claim Republicans agree with or use when defending a vote for Trump. And, just to clarify a side note, voters don't care about net migration. Republicans, in general, don't even really care about migration. They are opposed to illegal aliens coming to the US. A very important distinction.
– David S
2 hours ago
@xyious Nowhere does it say that voters must vote based on reality....
– user3067860
1 hour ago
add a comment |
up vote
9
down vote
Because polling data and Trump's approval rating do not tell the whole story.
As right-wing political commentator Ben Shapiro is fond of saying, two things can be true at once: It's entirely possible to both despise President Trump's character, bombastic personality, and divisive rhetoric AND simultaneously appreciate what he has done and is trying to accomplish policy-wise.
Consider the following:
- Trump's signature campaign promise was to get tough on illegal immigration, and he has done exactly that. Illegal immigration has always been a major concern for the right. Even though his "zero tolerance" policy is heavy-handed (or an outright human rights violation if you're on the left), it has sent a clear, unambiguous message to Central- and South American countries that the US/Mexico border is no longer an open thoroughfare for entering the United States illegally.
- The Tax Cuts and Jobs Act dramatically reduced corporate income taxes, which was previously the highest tax rate in the industrialized world. Regardless of whether you think this is good or bad for the economy, it has been a Republican policy wish for literally decades, and it finally got done under the Trump administration.
- The terrorist group ISIS, which was a major Middle East security concern that plagued the Obama administration, has nearly vanished from world headlines. The U.S. had a large role to play in that victory.
- US/Israeli relations are the best they've been in decades, and the Trump administration has been extremely friendly towards the Jewish state. Moving the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem is widely seen as huge positive step among conservatives and Israel's supporters -- especially among Christian conservatives. Other countries have since followed America's lead.
- Trump held a peace summit in Singapore with North- and South Korean leaders to discus nuclear disarmament of the Korean peninsula. It was the first time in history that North Korean and U.S. leaders have met face-to-face for talks. And while it remains to be seen what will come of them (North Korea has reneged on its promises in the past), it is nonetheless historic. North Korea has already destroyed some military outposts along the border, and has begun removing land mines from the DMZ.
- Trump has appointed and continues to nominate conservative judges to federal courts and to the U.S. Supreme Court. This is another campaign promise he has fulfilled. Conservatives who oppose Trump still enjoy the fact that the conservative tilt to the federal judiciary will outlast his legacy as president.
- Trump is constantly fighting back in the culture war. Despite his over-the-top rhetoric and criticism of "fake news", conservatives have been broadly troubled by left-wing identity politics and what they perceive to be pervasive liberal media bias for quite some time. This is the one place where Trump's rhetoric is a win for him politically among conservatives. Even many people on the right who don't support Trump's presidency tend to agree with him on this, even if they take everything he says with a grain of salt. Some conservatives argue that this reason alone is what got him elected in the first place.
Please note that this is not an overt argument in support of Trump. I am merely laying out the case for why conservatives specifically have not disowned him outright. If you could separate Trump's character and the garbage he craps out on Twitter from the way he has actually governed as President, his policy agenda and accomplishments to date read almost like a conservative dream come true.
Also note that there are a lot of policy disagreements among conservatives as well that work to temper their support; his belief in tariffs and his cozy disposition with world dictators are notable examples.
The bottom line is that, unlike with previous presidents, you can't conflate Trump's popularity and his performance as a governor. As it stands now (December, 2018), it does not appear likely that he will be reelected. But it all depends what happens between now and then, and on who the Democrats pony up for the 2020 race.
1) It never was and net migration from mexico is negative. 2) false. 3) Not Trump, but yes the US. 4) false. (they do love the move of the embassy, but not much else). 5) mostly true. 6) true (Although I would say it's a terrible thing). 7) what ??? This isn't close to reality. This is just a Republican talking point.
– xyious
3 hours ago
2
@xyious; Please clarify. 1) what never was? And what part of statement 2 is false? Aside from that, the OP wants to know the conservative viewpoint, so disagreement with anything on the list -- especially "Republican talking points" are irrelevant because those talking points are specifically what the OP was asking about. For example, #3. Doesn't matter if it was Trump or not; only that conservatives believe it was.
– Wes Sayeed
2 hours ago
@xyious This answer is addressing the question with specifics. The accuracy and spin of the claims being made are not being discussed, just whether or not it is a claim Republicans agree with or use when defending a vote for Trump. And, just to clarify a side note, voters don't care about net migration. Republicans, in general, don't even really care about migration. They are opposed to illegal aliens coming to the US. A very important distinction.
– David S
2 hours ago
@xyious Nowhere does it say that voters must vote based on reality....
– user3067860
1 hour ago
add a comment |
up vote
9
down vote
up vote
9
down vote
Because polling data and Trump's approval rating do not tell the whole story.
As right-wing political commentator Ben Shapiro is fond of saying, two things can be true at once: It's entirely possible to both despise President Trump's character, bombastic personality, and divisive rhetoric AND simultaneously appreciate what he has done and is trying to accomplish policy-wise.
Consider the following:
- Trump's signature campaign promise was to get tough on illegal immigration, and he has done exactly that. Illegal immigration has always been a major concern for the right. Even though his "zero tolerance" policy is heavy-handed (or an outright human rights violation if you're on the left), it has sent a clear, unambiguous message to Central- and South American countries that the US/Mexico border is no longer an open thoroughfare for entering the United States illegally.
- The Tax Cuts and Jobs Act dramatically reduced corporate income taxes, which was previously the highest tax rate in the industrialized world. Regardless of whether you think this is good or bad for the economy, it has been a Republican policy wish for literally decades, and it finally got done under the Trump administration.
- The terrorist group ISIS, which was a major Middle East security concern that plagued the Obama administration, has nearly vanished from world headlines. The U.S. had a large role to play in that victory.
- US/Israeli relations are the best they've been in decades, and the Trump administration has been extremely friendly towards the Jewish state. Moving the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem is widely seen as huge positive step among conservatives and Israel's supporters -- especially among Christian conservatives. Other countries have since followed America's lead.
- Trump held a peace summit in Singapore with North- and South Korean leaders to discus nuclear disarmament of the Korean peninsula. It was the first time in history that North Korean and U.S. leaders have met face-to-face for talks. And while it remains to be seen what will come of them (North Korea has reneged on its promises in the past), it is nonetheless historic. North Korea has already destroyed some military outposts along the border, and has begun removing land mines from the DMZ.
- Trump has appointed and continues to nominate conservative judges to federal courts and to the U.S. Supreme Court. This is another campaign promise he has fulfilled. Conservatives who oppose Trump still enjoy the fact that the conservative tilt to the federal judiciary will outlast his legacy as president.
- Trump is constantly fighting back in the culture war. Despite his over-the-top rhetoric and criticism of "fake news", conservatives have been broadly troubled by left-wing identity politics and what they perceive to be pervasive liberal media bias for quite some time. This is the one place where Trump's rhetoric is a win for him politically among conservatives. Even many people on the right who don't support Trump's presidency tend to agree with him on this, even if they take everything he says with a grain of salt. Some conservatives argue that this reason alone is what got him elected in the first place.
Please note that this is not an overt argument in support of Trump. I am merely laying out the case for why conservatives specifically have not disowned him outright. If you could separate Trump's character and the garbage he craps out on Twitter from the way he has actually governed as President, his policy agenda and accomplishments to date read almost like a conservative dream come true.
Also note that there are a lot of policy disagreements among conservatives as well that work to temper their support; his belief in tariffs and his cozy disposition with world dictators are notable examples.
The bottom line is that, unlike with previous presidents, you can't conflate Trump's popularity and his performance as a governor. As it stands now (December, 2018), it does not appear likely that he will be reelected. But it all depends what happens between now and then, and on who the Democrats pony up for the 2020 race.
Because polling data and Trump's approval rating do not tell the whole story.
As right-wing political commentator Ben Shapiro is fond of saying, two things can be true at once: It's entirely possible to both despise President Trump's character, bombastic personality, and divisive rhetoric AND simultaneously appreciate what he has done and is trying to accomplish policy-wise.
Consider the following:
- Trump's signature campaign promise was to get tough on illegal immigration, and he has done exactly that. Illegal immigration has always been a major concern for the right. Even though his "zero tolerance" policy is heavy-handed (or an outright human rights violation if you're on the left), it has sent a clear, unambiguous message to Central- and South American countries that the US/Mexico border is no longer an open thoroughfare for entering the United States illegally.
- The Tax Cuts and Jobs Act dramatically reduced corporate income taxes, which was previously the highest tax rate in the industrialized world. Regardless of whether you think this is good or bad for the economy, it has been a Republican policy wish for literally decades, and it finally got done under the Trump administration.
- The terrorist group ISIS, which was a major Middle East security concern that plagued the Obama administration, has nearly vanished from world headlines. The U.S. had a large role to play in that victory.
- US/Israeli relations are the best they've been in decades, and the Trump administration has been extremely friendly towards the Jewish state. Moving the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem is widely seen as huge positive step among conservatives and Israel's supporters -- especially among Christian conservatives. Other countries have since followed America's lead.
- Trump held a peace summit in Singapore with North- and South Korean leaders to discus nuclear disarmament of the Korean peninsula. It was the first time in history that North Korean and U.S. leaders have met face-to-face for talks. And while it remains to be seen what will come of them (North Korea has reneged on its promises in the past), it is nonetheless historic. North Korea has already destroyed some military outposts along the border, and has begun removing land mines from the DMZ.
- Trump has appointed and continues to nominate conservative judges to federal courts and to the U.S. Supreme Court. This is another campaign promise he has fulfilled. Conservatives who oppose Trump still enjoy the fact that the conservative tilt to the federal judiciary will outlast his legacy as president.
- Trump is constantly fighting back in the culture war. Despite his over-the-top rhetoric and criticism of "fake news", conservatives have been broadly troubled by left-wing identity politics and what they perceive to be pervasive liberal media bias for quite some time. This is the one place where Trump's rhetoric is a win for him politically among conservatives. Even many people on the right who don't support Trump's presidency tend to agree with him on this, even if they take everything he says with a grain of salt. Some conservatives argue that this reason alone is what got him elected in the first place.
Please note that this is not an overt argument in support of Trump. I am merely laying out the case for why conservatives specifically have not disowned him outright. If you could separate Trump's character and the garbage he craps out on Twitter from the way he has actually governed as President, his policy agenda and accomplishments to date read almost like a conservative dream come true.
Also note that there are a lot of policy disagreements among conservatives as well that work to temper their support; his belief in tariffs and his cozy disposition with world dictators are notable examples.
The bottom line is that, unlike with previous presidents, you can't conflate Trump's popularity and his performance as a governor. As it stands now (December, 2018), it does not appear likely that he will be reelected. But it all depends what happens between now and then, and on who the Democrats pony up for the 2020 race.
edited 5 hours ago
answered 6 hours ago
Wes Sayeed
7,12921138
7,12921138
1) It never was and net migration from mexico is negative. 2) false. 3) Not Trump, but yes the US. 4) false. (they do love the move of the embassy, but not much else). 5) mostly true. 6) true (Although I would say it's a terrible thing). 7) what ??? This isn't close to reality. This is just a Republican talking point.
– xyious
3 hours ago
2
@xyious; Please clarify. 1) what never was? And what part of statement 2 is false? Aside from that, the OP wants to know the conservative viewpoint, so disagreement with anything on the list -- especially "Republican talking points" are irrelevant because those talking points are specifically what the OP was asking about. For example, #3. Doesn't matter if it was Trump or not; only that conservatives believe it was.
– Wes Sayeed
2 hours ago
@xyious This answer is addressing the question with specifics. The accuracy and spin of the claims being made are not being discussed, just whether or not it is a claim Republicans agree with or use when defending a vote for Trump. And, just to clarify a side note, voters don't care about net migration. Republicans, in general, don't even really care about migration. They are opposed to illegal aliens coming to the US. A very important distinction.
– David S
2 hours ago
@xyious Nowhere does it say that voters must vote based on reality....
– user3067860
1 hour ago
add a comment |
1) It never was and net migration from mexico is negative. 2) false. 3) Not Trump, but yes the US. 4) false. (they do love the move of the embassy, but not much else). 5) mostly true. 6) true (Although I would say it's a terrible thing). 7) what ??? This isn't close to reality. This is just a Republican talking point.
– xyious
3 hours ago
2
@xyious; Please clarify. 1) what never was? And what part of statement 2 is false? Aside from that, the OP wants to know the conservative viewpoint, so disagreement with anything on the list -- especially "Republican talking points" are irrelevant because those talking points are specifically what the OP was asking about. For example, #3. Doesn't matter if it was Trump or not; only that conservatives believe it was.
– Wes Sayeed
2 hours ago
@xyious This answer is addressing the question with specifics. The accuracy and spin of the claims being made are not being discussed, just whether or not it is a claim Republicans agree with or use when defending a vote for Trump. And, just to clarify a side note, voters don't care about net migration. Republicans, in general, don't even really care about migration. They are opposed to illegal aliens coming to the US. A very important distinction.
– David S
2 hours ago
@xyious Nowhere does it say that voters must vote based on reality....
– user3067860
1 hour ago
1) It never was and net migration from mexico is negative. 2) false. 3) Not Trump, but yes the US. 4) false. (they do love the move of the embassy, but not much else). 5) mostly true. 6) true (Although I would say it's a terrible thing). 7) what ??? This isn't close to reality. This is just a Republican talking point.
– xyious
3 hours ago
1) It never was and net migration from mexico is negative. 2) false. 3) Not Trump, but yes the US. 4) false. (they do love the move of the embassy, but not much else). 5) mostly true. 6) true (Although I would say it's a terrible thing). 7) what ??? This isn't close to reality. This is just a Republican talking point.
– xyious
3 hours ago
2
2
@xyious; Please clarify. 1) what never was? And what part of statement 2 is false? Aside from that, the OP wants to know the conservative viewpoint, so disagreement with anything on the list -- especially "Republican talking points" are irrelevant because those talking points are specifically what the OP was asking about. For example, #3. Doesn't matter if it was Trump or not; only that conservatives believe it was.
– Wes Sayeed
2 hours ago
@xyious; Please clarify. 1) what never was? And what part of statement 2 is false? Aside from that, the OP wants to know the conservative viewpoint, so disagreement with anything on the list -- especially "Republican talking points" are irrelevant because those talking points are specifically what the OP was asking about. For example, #3. Doesn't matter if it was Trump or not; only that conservatives believe it was.
– Wes Sayeed
2 hours ago
@xyious This answer is addressing the question with specifics. The accuracy and spin of the claims being made are not being discussed, just whether or not it is a claim Republicans agree with or use when defending a vote for Trump. And, just to clarify a side note, voters don't care about net migration. Republicans, in general, don't even really care about migration. They are opposed to illegal aliens coming to the US. A very important distinction.
– David S
2 hours ago
@xyious This answer is addressing the question with specifics. The accuracy and spin of the claims being made are not being discussed, just whether or not it is a claim Republicans agree with or use when defending a vote for Trump. And, just to clarify a side note, voters don't care about net migration. Republicans, in general, don't even really care about migration. They are opposed to illegal aliens coming to the US. A very important distinction.
– David S
2 hours ago
@xyious Nowhere does it say that voters must vote based on reality....
– user3067860
1 hour ago
@xyious Nowhere does it say that voters must vote based on reality....
– user3067860
1 hour ago
add a comment |
up vote
6
down vote
There's an old English proverb that goes, "In for a penny, in for a pound." It is an example of the sunk cost fallacy, basically saying that once we put some effort/money/worthwhile thing into a cause that we can't easily reverse, our tendency is to follow through to the end, for fear of 'wasting' that initial effort/money/worthwhile thing.
The Republicans spent boatloads of political capital and trashed decades of a good reputation for Trump when they saw he could get the things that they wanted from government, and he's been fairly successful at doing so. Unfortunately, Trump, like any good mob boss, requires loyalty and a willingness to get dirty on his behalf, and treats anyone who voices disagreement as an enemy. And as the midterms show, Republican enemies of Trump don't get re-elected. And as for getting dirty on his behalf? There seem to be plenty willing to do so.
So where does that leave us at? The Republicans aren't going to give up on Trump en masse, because that would mean that several of them will likely be charged as accessories to one or more crimes. And they're the only ones with the power to prevent that ending.
add a comment |
up vote
6
down vote
There's an old English proverb that goes, "In for a penny, in for a pound." It is an example of the sunk cost fallacy, basically saying that once we put some effort/money/worthwhile thing into a cause that we can't easily reverse, our tendency is to follow through to the end, for fear of 'wasting' that initial effort/money/worthwhile thing.
The Republicans spent boatloads of political capital and trashed decades of a good reputation for Trump when they saw he could get the things that they wanted from government, and he's been fairly successful at doing so. Unfortunately, Trump, like any good mob boss, requires loyalty and a willingness to get dirty on his behalf, and treats anyone who voices disagreement as an enemy. And as the midterms show, Republican enemies of Trump don't get re-elected. And as for getting dirty on his behalf? There seem to be plenty willing to do so.
So where does that leave us at? The Republicans aren't going to give up on Trump en masse, because that would mean that several of them will likely be charged as accessories to one or more crimes. And they're the only ones with the power to prevent that ending.
add a comment |
up vote
6
down vote
up vote
6
down vote
There's an old English proverb that goes, "In for a penny, in for a pound." It is an example of the sunk cost fallacy, basically saying that once we put some effort/money/worthwhile thing into a cause that we can't easily reverse, our tendency is to follow through to the end, for fear of 'wasting' that initial effort/money/worthwhile thing.
The Republicans spent boatloads of political capital and trashed decades of a good reputation for Trump when they saw he could get the things that they wanted from government, and he's been fairly successful at doing so. Unfortunately, Trump, like any good mob boss, requires loyalty and a willingness to get dirty on his behalf, and treats anyone who voices disagreement as an enemy. And as the midterms show, Republican enemies of Trump don't get re-elected. And as for getting dirty on his behalf? There seem to be plenty willing to do so.
So where does that leave us at? The Republicans aren't going to give up on Trump en masse, because that would mean that several of them will likely be charged as accessories to one or more crimes. And they're the only ones with the power to prevent that ending.
There's an old English proverb that goes, "In for a penny, in for a pound." It is an example of the sunk cost fallacy, basically saying that once we put some effort/money/worthwhile thing into a cause that we can't easily reverse, our tendency is to follow through to the end, for fear of 'wasting' that initial effort/money/worthwhile thing.
The Republicans spent boatloads of political capital and trashed decades of a good reputation for Trump when they saw he could get the things that they wanted from government, and he's been fairly successful at doing so. Unfortunately, Trump, like any good mob boss, requires loyalty and a willingness to get dirty on his behalf, and treats anyone who voices disagreement as an enemy. And as the midterms show, Republican enemies of Trump don't get re-elected. And as for getting dirty on his behalf? There seem to be plenty willing to do so.
So where does that leave us at? The Republicans aren't going to give up on Trump en masse, because that would mean that several of them will likely be charged as accessories to one or more crimes. And they're the only ones with the power to prevent that ending.
answered 8 hours ago
Carduus
4,857925
4,857925
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
There's no hard proof for "why", but the following are all reasons stated at one time or another. They aren't mutually exclusive.
High level Republicans don't want to antagonize Trump due to negative consequences from him.
High level Republicans don't want to antagonize Trump due to negative consequences from their electorate who are Trump supporters.
High level Republicans don't want to antagonize Trump due to negative consequences to the party from infighting. Both as far as morale, and opportunity cost (an hour/a dollar spent infighting is an hour/a dollar not spent opposing the other party).
Inevitability. Trump demonstrated that he can beat any even most formidable R opponents in primaries in 2016. It may very well be that people just take it for granted he's inevitably going to win 2020 primaries, so why spit upwind?
Trump actually delivered on many things (see Wes Sayeed's excellent answer for a list). Arguably, more and more important things than R presidents before him. Bush may not have had any scandals and got re-elected, but what exactly did the conservatives get out of it as far as political achievements? (good question to ask on this site, but my impression is "not much in second term").
To paraphrase, if:
P(T,E) = "probability of Trump winning general election"
P(T,A) = "probability of Trump delivering things Rs want"
P(R,E) = "probability of Trump replacement winning general election"
P(R,A) = "probability of replacement delivering R agenda"
the calculation is as follows: is
P(T,E) * P(T,A) < P(R,E) * P(R,A)
?
While you can make legitimate arguments that P(T,E) is less than P(R,E) (someone else is less likely to lose a general election), you can ALSO make a legitimate argument that P(T,A) is far bigger than P(R,A) - some RINO Republican like Romney governing like Democrat Lite wouldn't really be much of a win for Republicans as far as agenda.
Somewhat linked with 4, there are downsides to a non-Trump Republican winning 2020 General elections.
Due to reversion to the mean, that would almost guaranteed assure 2024 Democrat win (and 2022 Democrat midterm win). Conversely, Democrat winning in 2020 may cause that to revert ala 2014.
Having an effective (as far as delivering agenda) R President is obviously worth such downsides.
Having an ineffective R president may not be.
Trump demonstrated in practice that he can win. So, while you can make reasonable argument that he'd be more likely to lose in 2020 than 2016, you can also make reasonable arguments that he will manage to win 2020 more than a competing R candidate despite his weaknesses.
2
I'm curious as to what you think Trump has actually delivered on. As far as I can see, most of what he's done that either hasn't been blocked by the courts, or that (like trade wars) he hasn't backtracked on are unpopular with the majority of voters. (Of course you have to stick to what he's actually done, not his inflated claims or outright lies.)
– jamesqf
6 hours ago
@jamesqf - see Wes Sayeed's excellent answer.
– user4012
5 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
There's no hard proof for "why", but the following are all reasons stated at one time or another. They aren't mutually exclusive.
High level Republicans don't want to antagonize Trump due to negative consequences from him.
High level Republicans don't want to antagonize Trump due to negative consequences from their electorate who are Trump supporters.
High level Republicans don't want to antagonize Trump due to negative consequences to the party from infighting. Both as far as morale, and opportunity cost (an hour/a dollar spent infighting is an hour/a dollar not spent opposing the other party).
Inevitability. Trump demonstrated that he can beat any even most formidable R opponents in primaries in 2016. It may very well be that people just take it for granted he's inevitably going to win 2020 primaries, so why spit upwind?
Trump actually delivered on many things (see Wes Sayeed's excellent answer for a list). Arguably, more and more important things than R presidents before him. Bush may not have had any scandals and got re-elected, but what exactly did the conservatives get out of it as far as political achievements? (good question to ask on this site, but my impression is "not much in second term").
To paraphrase, if:
P(T,E) = "probability of Trump winning general election"
P(T,A) = "probability of Trump delivering things Rs want"
P(R,E) = "probability of Trump replacement winning general election"
P(R,A) = "probability of replacement delivering R agenda"
the calculation is as follows: is
P(T,E) * P(T,A) < P(R,E) * P(R,A)
?
While you can make legitimate arguments that P(T,E) is less than P(R,E) (someone else is less likely to lose a general election), you can ALSO make a legitimate argument that P(T,A) is far bigger than P(R,A) - some RINO Republican like Romney governing like Democrat Lite wouldn't really be much of a win for Republicans as far as agenda.
Somewhat linked with 4, there are downsides to a non-Trump Republican winning 2020 General elections.
Due to reversion to the mean, that would almost guaranteed assure 2024 Democrat win (and 2022 Democrat midterm win). Conversely, Democrat winning in 2020 may cause that to revert ala 2014.
Having an effective (as far as delivering agenda) R President is obviously worth such downsides.
Having an ineffective R president may not be.
Trump demonstrated in practice that he can win. So, while you can make reasonable argument that he'd be more likely to lose in 2020 than 2016, you can also make reasonable arguments that he will manage to win 2020 more than a competing R candidate despite his weaknesses.
2
I'm curious as to what you think Trump has actually delivered on. As far as I can see, most of what he's done that either hasn't been blocked by the courts, or that (like trade wars) he hasn't backtracked on are unpopular with the majority of voters. (Of course you have to stick to what he's actually done, not his inflated claims or outright lies.)
– jamesqf
6 hours ago
@jamesqf - see Wes Sayeed's excellent answer.
– user4012
5 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
There's no hard proof for "why", but the following are all reasons stated at one time or another. They aren't mutually exclusive.
High level Republicans don't want to antagonize Trump due to negative consequences from him.
High level Republicans don't want to antagonize Trump due to negative consequences from their electorate who are Trump supporters.
High level Republicans don't want to antagonize Trump due to negative consequences to the party from infighting. Both as far as morale, and opportunity cost (an hour/a dollar spent infighting is an hour/a dollar not spent opposing the other party).
Inevitability. Trump demonstrated that he can beat any even most formidable R opponents in primaries in 2016. It may very well be that people just take it for granted he's inevitably going to win 2020 primaries, so why spit upwind?
Trump actually delivered on many things (see Wes Sayeed's excellent answer for a list). Arguably, more and more important things than R presidents before him. Bush may not have had any scandals and got re-elected, but what exactly did the conservatives get out of it as far as political achievements? (good question to ask on this site, but my impression is "not much in second term").
To paraphrase, if:
P(T,E) = "probability of Trump winning general election"
P(T,A) = "probability of Trump delivering things Rs want"
P(R,E) = "probability of Trump replacement winning general election"
P(R,A) = "probability of replacement delivering R agenda"
the calculation is as follows: is
P(T,E) * P(T,A) < P(R,E) * P(R,A)
?
While you can make legitimate arguments that P(T,E) is less than P(R,E) (someone else is less likely to lose a general election), you can ALSO make a legitimate argument that P(T,A) is far bigger than P(R,A) - some RINO Republican like Romney governing like Democrat Lite wouldn't really be much of a win for Republicans as far as agenda.
Somewhat linked with 4, there are downsides to a non-Trump Republican winning 2020 General elections.
Due to reversion to the mean, that would almost guaranteed assure 2024 Democrat win (and 2022 Democrat midterm win). Conversely, Democrat winning in 2020 may cause that to revert ala 2014.
Having an effective (as far as delivering agenda) R President is obviously worth such downsides.
Having an ineffective R president may not be.
Trump demonstrated in practice that he can win. So, while you can make reasonable argument that he'd be more likely to lose in 2020 than 2016, you can also make reasonable arguments that he will manage to win 2020 more than a competing R candidate despite his weaknesses.
There's no hard proof for "why", but the following are all reasons stated at one time or another. They aren't mutually exclusive.
High level Republicans don't want to antagonize Trump due to negative consequences from him.
High level Republicans don't want to antagonize Trump due to negative consequences from their electorate who are Trump supporters.
High level Republicans don't want to antagonize Trump due to negative consequences to the party from infighting. Both as far as morale, and opportunity cost (an hour/a dollar spent infighting is an hour/a dollar not spent opposing the other party).
Inevitability. Trump demonstrated that he can beat any even most formidable R opponents in primaries in 2016. It may very well be that people just take it for granted he's inevitably going to win 2020 primaries, so why spit upwind?
Trump actually delivered on many things (see Wes Sayeed's excellent answer for a list). Arguably, more and more important things than R presidents before him. Bush may not have had any scandals and got re-elected, but what exactly did the conservatives get out of it as far as political achievements? (good question to ask on this site, but my impression is "not much in second term").
To paraphrase, if:
P(T,E) = "probability of Trump winning general election"
P(T,A) = "probability of Trump delivering things Rs want"
P(R,E) = "probability of Trump replacement winning general election"
P(R,A) = "probability of replacement delivering R agenda"
the calculation is as follows: is
P(T,E) * P(T,A) < P(R,E) * P(R,A)
?
While you can make legitimate arguments that P(T,E) is less than P(R,E) (someone else is less likely to lose a general election), you can ALSO make a legitimate argument that P(T,A) is far bigger than P(R,A) - some RINO Republican like Romney governing like Democrat Lite wouldn't really be much of a win for Republicans as far as agenda.
Somewhat linked with 4, there are downsides to a non-Trump Republican winning 2020 General elections.
Due to reversion to the mean, that would almost guaranteed assure 2024 Democrat win (and 2022 Democrat midterm win). Conversely, Democrat winning in 2020 may cause that to revert ala 2014.
Having an effective (as far as delivering agenda) R President is obviously worth such downsides.
Having an ineffective R president may not be.
Trump demonstrated in practice that he can win. So, while you can make reasonable argument that he'd be more likely to lose in 2020 than 2016, you can also make reasonable arguments that he will manage to win 2020 more than a competing R candidate despite his weaknesses.
edited 5 hours ago
answered 8 hours ago
user4012
67.7k15147291
67.7k15147291
2
I'm curious as to what you think Trump has actually delivered on. As far as I can see, most of what he's done that either hasn't been blocked by the courts, or that (like trade wars) he hasn't backtracked on are unpopular with the majority of voters. (Of course you have to stick to what he's actually done, not his inflated claims or outright lies.)
– jamesqf
6 hours ago
@jamesqf - see Wes Sayeed's excellent answer.
– user4012
5 hours ago
add a comment |
2
I'm curious as to what you think Trump has actually delivered on. As far as I can see, most of what he's done that either hasn't been blocked by the courts, or that (like trade wars) he hasn't backtracked on are unpopular with the majority of voters. (Of course you have to stick to what he's actually done, not his inflated claims or outright lies.)
– jamesqf
6 hours ago
@jamesqf - see Wes Sayeed's excellent answer.
– user4012
5 hours ago
2
2
I'm curious as to what you think Trump has actually delivered on. As far as I can see, most of what he's done that either hasn't been blocked by the courts, or that (like trade wars) he hasn't backtracked on are unpopular with the majority of voters. (Of course you have to stick to what he's actually done, not his inflated claims or outright lies.)
– jamesqf
6 hours ago
I'm curious as to what you think Trump has actually delivered on. As far as I can see, most of what he's done that either hasn't been blocked by the courts, or that (like trade wars) he hasn't backtracked on are unpopular with the majority of voters. (Of course you have to stick to what he's actually done, not his inflated claims or outright lies.)
– jamesqf
6 hours ago
@jamesqf - see Wes Sayeed's excellent answer.
– user4012
5 hours ago
@jamesqf - see Wes Sayeed's excellent answer.
– user4012
5 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
-1
down vote
Because they can't credibly convert Trump supporters.
The popular narrative is that Donald Trump's election represents some sort of "whitelash" against Democrats, Obama supporters, human decency, etc. But rich racist white people voted for Romney and McCain too.
Trump clearly won on the backs of working-class voters. Of pretty much all races (outperformed the last two Republican candidates among both Hispanics and African Americans). How an outsider managed to capture such a large and valuable demographic is an interesting question in it's own right, but I'll give you the Occam's Razor: that demo was being ignored by both major political parties.
Think about it. 50 years ago pretty much all e.g. sitcoms were about working class people. 20 years ago most still were. Now almost none of them are. Those people have gradually been excluded from cultural relevance. Jobs have moved, towns have died. Industries have changed. If anyone in Washington cares, it's awfully hard to see it from podunk.
Now along comes this guy who says hey I'm for you, I'm going to fight for you, I'm going to focus on you unlike these other yahoos...
And the sad part, for those who don't like President Trump, is that nothing, nothing has changed about that dynamic since the election. Trump is still the king of his domain. Democrats aren't even an also-ran. They haven't made the first attempt to court those people. They have dismissed them as racists and/or opioid addicts. And there are plenty of Republicans who are going to say eh, I don't like him but I'd still vote for him ahead of the other side.
3
He outperformed the last two candidates with African Americans but underperformed all of the previous republican candidates. It's almost like the two elections with Obama had something different about them...
– David Rice
4 hours ago
1
He certainly got up there and said that, yes. But now he has to deliver on it. And so far, mostly what he's delivered is tax cuts to his super-rich friends, and trying to take away the health cover which was the most tangible thing Obama contributed to the working class. As predicted by so many people, he's just another millionaire saying "I'm one of the ordinary people".
– Graham
3 hours ago
1
It's weird how these working class people are voting for a (likely) billionaire that doesn't empathize with them in any way. He ran on taking away their healthcare, and really tried to do it. He ran on lowering taxes for the rich and corporations and he has delivered. The only thing he really said he would improve for working class americans is coal jobs, which he failed (and will continue to fail to) bring back. Nothing else that he does or wants to do will benefit them in any way.
– xyious
3 hours ago
There's no explaining the primaries and his winning (other than a glut of opponents splitting the votes between them), but he won the general election also in large part because of 'hold-your-nose' support from single issue pro-lifers
– NKCampbell
2 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
-1
down vote
Because they can't credibly convert Trump supporters.
The popular narrative is that Donald Trump's election represents some sort of "whitelash" against Democrats, Obama supporters, human decency, etc. But rich racist white people voted for Romney and McCain too.
Trump clearly won on the backs of working-class voters. Of pretty much all races (outperformed the last two Republican candidates among both Hispanics and African Americans). How an outsider managed to capture such a large and valuable demographic is an interesting question in it's own right, but I'll give you the Occam's Razor: that demo was being ignored by both major political parties.
Think about it. 50 years ago pretty much all e.g. sitcoms were about working class people. 20 years ago most still were. Now almost none of them are. Those people have gradually been excluded from cultural relevance. Jobs have moved, towns have died. Industries have changed. If anyone in Washington cares, it's awfully hard to see it from podunk.
Now along comes this guy who says hey I'm for you, I'm going to fight for you, I'm going to focus on you unlike these other yahoos...
And the sad part, for those who don't like President Trump, is that nothing, nothing has changed about that dynamic since the election. Trump is still the king of his domain. Democrats aren't even an also-ran. They haven't made the first attempt to court those people. They have dismissed them as racists and/or opioid addicts. And there are plenty of Republicans who are going to say eh, I don't like him but I'd still vote for him ahead of the other side.
3
He outperformed the last two candidates with African Americans but underperformed all of the previous republican candidates. It's almost like the two elections with Obama had something different about them...
– David Rice
4 hours ago
1
He certainly got up there and said that, yes. But now he has to deliver on it. And so far, mostly what he's delivered is tax cuts to his super-rich friends, and trying to take away the health cover which was the most tangible thing Obama contributed to the working class. As predicted by so many people, he's just another millionaire saying "I'm one of the ordinary people".
– Graham
3 hours ago
1
It's weird how these working class people are voting for a (likely) billionaire that doesn't empathize with them in any way. He ran on taking away their healthcare, and really tried to do it. He ran on lowering taxes for the rich and corporations and he has delivered. The only thing he really said he would improve for working class americans is coal jobs, which he failed (and will continue to fail to) bring back. Nothing else that he does or wants to do will benefit them in any way.
– xyious
3 hours ago
There's no explaining the primaries and his winning (other than a glut of opponents splitting the votes between them), but he won the general election also in large part because of 'hold-your-nose' support from single issue pro-lifers
– NKCampbell
2 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
-1
down vote
up vote
-1
down vote
Because they can't credibly convert Trump supporters.
The popular narrative is that Donald Trump's election represents some sort of "whitelash" against Democrats, Obama supporters, human decency, etc. But rich racist white people voted for Romney and McCain too.
Trump clearly won on the backs of working-class voters. Of pretty much all races (outperformed the last two Republican candidates among both Hispanics and African Americans). How an outsider managed to capture such a large and valuable demographic is an interesting question in it's own right, but I'll give you the Occam's Razor: that demo was being ignored by both major political parties.
Think about it. 50 years ago pretty much all e.g. sitcoms were about working class people. 20 years ago most still were. Now almost none of them are. Those people have gradually been excluded from cultural relevance. Jobs have moved, towns have died. Industries have changed. If anyone in Washington cares, it's awfully hard to see it from podunk.
Now along comes this guy who says hey I'm for you, I'm going to fight for you, I'm going to focus on you unlike these other yahoos...
And the sad part, for those who don't like President Trump, is that nothing, nothing has changed about that dynamic since the election. Trump is still the king of his domain. Democrats aren't even an also-ran. They haven't made the first attempt to court those people. They have dismissed them as racists and/or opioid addicts. And there are plenty of Republicans who are going to say eh, I don't like him but I'd still vote for him ahead of the other side.
Because they can't credibly convert Trump supporters.
The popular narrative is that Donald Trump's election represents some sort of "whitelash" against Democrats, Obama supporters, human decency, etc. But rich racist white people voted for Romney and McCain too.
Trump clearly won on the backs of working-class voters. Of pretty much all races (outperformed the last two Republican candidates among both Hispanics and African Americans). How an outsider managed to capture such a large and valuable demographic is an interesting question in it's own right, but I'll give you the Occam's Razor: that demo was being ignored by both major political parties.
Think about it. 50 years ago pretty much all e.g. sitcoms were about working class people. 20 years ago most still were. Now almost none of them are. Those people have gradually been excluded from cultural relevance. Jobs have moved, towns have died. Industries have changed. If anyone in Washington cares, it's awfully hard to see it from podunk.
Now along comes this guy who says hey I'm for you, I'm going to fight for you, I'm going to focus on you unlike these other yahoos...
And the sad part, for those who don't like President Trump, is that nothing, nothing has changed about that dynamic since the election. Trump is still the king of his domain. Democrats aren't even an also-ran. They haven't made the first attempt to court those people. They have dismissed them as racists and/or opioid addicts. And there are plenty of Republicans who are going to say eh, I don't like him but I'd still vote for him ahead of the other side.
edited 5 hours ago
answered 5 hours ago
Jared Smith
2,9192915
2,9192915
3
He outperformed the last two candidates with African Americans but underperformed all of the previous republican candidates. It's almost like the two elections with Obama had something different about them...
– David Rice
4 hours ago
1
He certainly got up there and said that, yes. But now he has to deliver on it. And so far, mostly what he's delivered is tax cuts to his super-rich friends, and trying to take away the health cover which was the most tangible thing Obama contributed to the working class. As predicted by so many people, he's just another millionaire saying "I'm one of the ordinary people".
– Graham
3 hours ago
1
It's weird how these working class people are voting for a (likely) billionaire that doesn't empathize with them in any way. He ran on taking away their healthcare, and really tried to do it. He ran on lowering taxes for the rich and corporations and he has delivered. The only thing he really said he would improve for working class americans is coal jobs, which he failed (and will continue to fail to) bring back. Nothing else that he does or wants to do will benefit them in any way.
– xyious
3 hours ago
There's no explaining the primaries and his winning (other than a glut of opponents splitting the votes between them), but he won the general election also in large part because of 'hold-your-nose' support from single issue pro-lifers
– NKCampbell
2 hours ago
add a comment |
3
He outperformed the last two candidates with African Americans but underperformed all of the previous republican candidates. It's almost like the two elections with Obama had something different about them...
– David Rice
4 hours ago
1
He certainly got up there and said that, yes. But now he has to deliver on it. And so far, mostly what he's delivered is tax cuts to his super-rich friends, and trying to take away the health cover which was the most tangible thing Obama contributed to the working class. As predicted by so many people, he's just another millionaire saying "I'm one of the ordinary people".
– Graham
3 hours ago
1
It's weird how these working class people are voting for a (likely) billionaire that doesn't empathize with them in any way. He ran on taking away their healthcare, and really tried to do it. He ran on lowering taxes for the rich and corporations and he has delivered. The only thing he really said he would improve for working class americans is coal jobs, which he failed (and will continue to fail to) bring back. Nothing else that he does or wants to do will benefit them in any way.
– xyious
3 hours ago
There's no explaining the primaries and his winning (other than a glut of opponents splitting the votes between them), but he won the general election also in large part because of 'hold-your-nose' support from single issue pro-lifers
– NKCampbell
2 hours ago
3
3
He outperformed the last two candidates with African Americans but underperformed all of the previous republican candidates. It's almost like the two elections with Obama had something different about them...
– David Rice
4 hours ago
He outperformed the last two candidates with African Americans but underperformed all of the previous republican candidates. It's almost like the two elections with Obama had something different about them...
– David Rice
4 hours ago
1
1
He certainly got up there and said that, yes. But now he has to deliver on it. And so far, mostly what he's delivered is tax cuts to his super-rich friends, and trying to take away the health cover which was the most tangible thing Obama contributed to the working class. As predicted by so many people, he's just another millionaire saying "I'm one of the ordinary people".
– Graham
3 hours ago
He certainly got up there and said that, yes. But now he has to deliver on it. And so far, mostly what he's delivered is tax cuts to his super-rich friends, and trying to take away the health cover which was the most tangible thing Obama contributed to the working class. As predicted by so many people, he's just another millionaire saying "I'm one of the ordinary people".
– Graham
3 hours ago
1
1
It's weird how these working class people are voting for a (likely) billionaire that doesn't empathize with them in any way. He ran on taking away their healthcare, and really tried to do it. He ran on lowering taxes for the rich and corporations and he has delivered. The only thing he really said he would improve for working class americans is coal jobs, which he failed (and will continue to fail to) bring back. Nothing else that he does or wants to do will benefit them in any way.
– xyious
3 hours ago
It's weird how these working class people are voting for a (likely) billionaire that doesn't empathize with them in any way. He ran on taking away their healthcare, and really tried to do it. He ran on lowering taxes for the rich and corporations and he has delivered. The only thing he really said he would improve for working class americans is coal jobs, which he failed (and will continue to fail to) bring back. Nothing else that he does or wants to do will benefit them in any way.
– xyious
3 hours ago
There's no explaining the primaries and his winning (other than a glut of opponents splitting the votes between them), but he won the general election also in large part because of 'hold-your-nose' support from single issue pro-lifers
– NKCampbell
2 hours ago
There's no explaining the primaries and his winning (other than a glut of opponents splitting the votes between them), but he won the general election also in large part because of 'hold-your-nose' support from single issue pro-lifers
– NKCampbell
2 hours ago
add a comment |
Jaood is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Jaood is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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15
"the immense popularity of the most likely Democratic candidates" - do you have evidence that Beto O'Rourke (or Warren for that matter) are "immensely popular" outside of narrow Progressive base of Democratic party? It seems somewhat debatable as an assertion.
– user4012
8 hours ago
11
There's a lot of begging the question in this question. The claim that Trump is "almost guaranteed to lose" is not supported, nor is the so-called "immense popularity" of potential Democrat candidates. One subjective statistic, the so-called disapproval rating, can't pull that much weight.
– Joe
7 hours ago
3
This question is making one big assumption, I think. It's not clear to me that the Republican Party has the organizational/logistical ability to mount a significant resistance to Trump at the present time, even if it wanted to.
– Michael W.
5 hours ago
4
Being monumentally unpopular with larger demographic groups that are not as motivated to vote vs cult-popular with smaller groups that are extremely motivated to vote is the confounding factor in this calculus.
– PoloHoleSet
4 hours ago
2
You made at least one giant illogical jump. "Disapproving" is not the same as "fundamentally opposed to Trump, to the point where it is hard to see what could possibly change their stance". How did you get from one to the other?
– ScottF
3 hours ago