How do I deal with a DM that throws encounters at us that are way above the party?











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I'm not sure if the question was worded in a coherent way, but I have recently played in a Pathfinder game and a 5e game and both times the DM (same one both times) gave us overpowered encounters.



In the Pathfinder game we were four level 5 characters and the main boss was a CR 9 with five other creatures no lower than CR 4. It was a TPK.



In the 5e game we were a party of three level 1 characters and we were up against nine CR 2 creatures. It was also a TPK.



There was no way out of either combat. The Pathfinder encounter was in a dungeon we were locked in and the CR 9 was invisible and wanted to eat us and the others were hidden. The 5e encounter we were going through a town and the enemies came out of hiding and surrounded us. No scouting or anything would have shown it unless we were to investigate every single building, crate and barrel.



The DM has been a DM for a few years and he didn't seem fazed about it and we did talk to him but he was focused on the individual creatures and not the combination of creatures.



How can I tell the DM he needs to back it down and use appropriate CR creatures?










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  • 15




    Related: How can I suggest the DM stop trying to kill us?
    – Sdjz
    Nov 20 at 16:11






  • 5




    I have added relevent information from your comments into your question because they are valuable information. In future please consider doing this yourself. Better questions get better answers! And comments are only temporary so anything that you (or others) think is important should be edited into the question. :)
    – Rubiksmoose
    Nov 20 at 19:03








  • 1




    Please do not answer in comments.
    – mxyzplk
    Nov 21 at 20:42















up vote
36
down vote

favorite
1












I'm not sure if the question was worded in a coherent way, but I have recently played in a Pathfinder game and a 5e game and both times the DM (same one both times) gave us overpowered encounters.



In the Pathfinder game we were four level 5 characters and the main boss was a CR 9 with five other creatures no lower than CR 4. It was a TPK.



In the 5e game we were a party of three level 1 characters and we were up against nine CR 2 creatures. It was also a TPK.



There was no way out of either combat. The Pathfinder encounter was in a dungeon we were locked in and the CR 9 was invisible and wanted to eat us and the others were hidden. The 5e encounter we were going through a town and the enemies came out of hiding and surrounded us. No scouting or anything would have shown it unless we were to investigate every single building, crate and barrel.



The DM has been a DM for a few years and he didn't seem fazed about it and we did talk to him but he was focused on the individual creatures and not the combination of creatures.



How can I tell the DM he needs to back it down and use appropriate CR creatures?










share|improve this question




















  • 15




    Related: How can I suggest the DM stop trying to kill us?
    – Sdjz
    Nov 20 at 16:11






  • 5




    I have added relevent information from your comments into your question because they are valuable information. In future please consider doing this yourself. Better questions get better answers! And comments are only temporary so anything that you (or others) think is important should be edited into the question. :)
    – Rubiksmoose
    Nov 20 at 19:03








  • 1




    Please do not answer in comments.
    – mxyzplk
    Nov 21 at 20:42













up vote
36
down vote

favorite
1









up vote
36
down vote

favorite
1






1





I'm not sure if the question was worded in a coherent way, but I have recently played in a Pathfinder game and a 5e game and both times the DM (same one both times) gave us overpowered encounters.



In the Pathfinder game we were four level 5 characters and the main boss was a CR 9 with five other creatures no lower than CR 4. It was a TPK.



In the 5e game we were a party of three level 1 characters and we were up against nine CR 2 creatures. It was also a TPK.



There was no way out of either combat. The Pathfinder encounter was in a dungeon we were locked in and the CR 9 was invisible and wanted to eat us and the others were hidden. The 5e encounter we were going through a town and the enemies came out of hiding and surrounded us. No scouting or anything would have shown it unless we were to investigate every single building, crate and barrel.



The DM has been a DM for a few years and he didn't seem fazed about it and we did talk to him but he was focused on the individual creatures and not the combination of creatures.



How can I tell the DM he needs to back it down and use appropriate CR creatures?










share|improve this question















I'm not sure if the question was worded in a coherent way, but I have recently played in a Pathfinder game and a 5e game and both times the DM (same one both times) gave us overpowered encounters.



In the Pathfinder game we were four level 5 characters and the main boss was a CR 9 with five other creatures no lower than CR 4. It was a TPK.



In the 5e game we were a party of three level 1 characters and we were up against nine CR 2 creatures. It was also a TPK.



There was no way out of either combat. The Pathfinder encounter was in a dungeon we were locked in and the CR 9 was invisible and wanted to eat us and the others were hidden. The 5e encounter we were going through a town and the enemies came out of hiding and surrounded us. No scouting or anything would have shown it unless we were to investigate every single building, crate and barrel.



The DM has been a DM for a few years and he didn't seem fazed about it and we did talk to him but he was focused on the individual creatures and not the combination of creatures.



How can I tell the DM he needs to back it down and use appropriate CR creatures?







dnd-5e pathfinder encounter-design problem-gm






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edited Nov 21 at 21:13

























asked Nov 20 at 15:54









Eternallord66

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481315








  • 15




    Related: How can I suggest the DM stop trying to kill us?
    – Sdjz
    Nov 20 at 16:11






  • 5




    I have added relevent information from your comments into your question because they are valuable information. In future please consider doing this yourself. Better questions get better answers! And comments are only temporary so anything that you (or others) think is important should be edited into the question. :)
    – Rubiksmoose
    Nov 20 at 19:03








  • 1




    Please do not answer in comments.
    – mxyzplk
    Nov 21 at 20:42














  • 15




    Related: How can I suggest the DM stop trying to kill us?
    – Sdjz
    Nov 20 at 16:11






  • 5




    I have added relevent information from your comments into your question because they are valuable information. In future please consider doing this yourself. Better questions get better answers! And comments are only temporary so anything that you (or others) think is important should be edited into the question. :)
    – Rubiksmoose
    Nov 20 at 19:03








  • 1




    Please do not answer in comments.
    – mxyzplk
    Nov 21 at 20:42








15




15




Related: How can I suggest the DM stop trying to kill us?
– Sdjz
Nov 20 at 16:11




Related: How can I suggest the DM stop trying to kill us?
– Sdjz
Nov 20 at 16:11




5




5




I have added relevent information from your comments into your question because they are valuable information. In future please consider doing this yourself. Better questions get better answers! And comments are only temporary so anything that you (or others) think is important should be edited into the question. :)
– Rubiksmoose
Nov 20 at 19:03






I have added relevent information from your comments into your question because they are valuable information. In future please consider doing this yourself. Better questions get better answers! And comments are only temporary so anything that you (or others) think is important should be edited into the question. :)
– Rubiksmoose
Nov 20 at 19:03






1




1




Please do not answer in comments.
– mxyzplk
Nov 21 at 20:42




Please do not answer in comments.
– mxyzplk
Nov 21 at 20:42










7 Answers
7






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
76
down vote













Talk to the DM



Give non-accusatory feedback



Express your point of view using neutral language and I statements. E.g. "When the encounter with 9 ogres ended in the death of all the characters, I felt helpless and it was not fun for me."



Ask for feedback.



Ask them if there were alternative endings they had in mind. It can take a while to get in sync with the other people's storytelling methods and ways of thinking about plots. Perhaps there was some secret or trick that they had expected the party to discover.



Discuss game expectations and desires with Players and GM



It sounds like your expectations for the game were not met. This may be the case for everyone involved. There are a number of ways to avoid or mitigate frustration in subsequent campaigns. Suggest doing a session 0 to facilitate this discussion.






share|improve this answer



















  • 30




    This is the right answer, but I would also add asking the GM why they're presenting hard encounters. Is it a deliberate attempt to make the game gritty and challenging? Is it unintentional? Are they overestimating how powerful the party is? In my experience, the most common reason DMs present overpowered encounters is because of a misunderstanding of how CRs are calculated. I had known many DMs who thought a group of CR 1 monsters results in a CR 1 encounter. Understanding why the DM is doing this is very important when discussing this issue with them.
    – Cyrad
    Nov 20 at 16:51












  • Or the DM wanted to achieve a total party abduction (that's a decent way to start an adventure but I'd narrate it as it's not fun to play when the PCs can't do anything against it) and just forgot to offer "we'll let you live if you stop fighting and come with us" in the heat of the moment - or they said it but the players didn't catch it in the heat of the moment - that happens, especially to new DMs with groups they don't know well.
    – Sumyrda
    Nov 21 at 7:37






  • 4




    To add to this answer: Maybe suggest a tool like Kobold Fight Club. It gives an objective viewpoint of how hard your previous encounters were, and it can help your DM get a better view on what would be a fairer encounter.
    – Mortaza
    Nov 21 at 12:15


















up vote
18
down vote













You can say something like: "I didn't have fun in this game because you gave us an encounter that was far too difficult and we all died." That's a fair criticism.



But, honestly, D&D is a game where you vote with your feet. The DM can narrate anything happening that they want; the players can leave the game and find a different DM if they're not having fun.



My own policy is that, if someone TPKs my group in this way, I thank them politely for their time, and then I leave the game. You might try doing the same.






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    up vote
    13
    down vote













    Step 1: Discuss with the DM the Basic Rules on How to Build an Encounter.



    This part of the answer is confined to D&D 5e.



    Step 1a: share this answer with your DM, as your judgment dictates.



    The Basic Rules have Encounter Building guidance on pages 165-167. Sit down with the DM and work through an encounter building exercise for level 1 characters. Build together an encounter for each difficulty: Easy, Medium, Hard, Deadly.



    Step 2: Ask DM to run one of each (difficulty) encounter at the next session.



    By running encounters at each difficulty level, the DM can get a rough idea about what this edition's encounter difficulty looks like.



    Then ask the DM to build and run a hard encounter that is built for a party of characters 2 levels higher than your characters.




    • For example: if you are all now level 2, have him build and run one for a party of level 4 characters. That's about 2000 XP adjusted. Two yetis (1400 x 1.5 = 2100) is close enough. A Wight and four Zombies would work also. (About 1800 XP adjusted)



    • The DM may still prefer, and your group may prefer, encounters at the
      deadly and deadly-plus level. With the above approach, "how to
      turn the dials up and down" will be better appreciated, as will how out-of-whack the initial encounter was for your group of three level 1 characters.




      • The 9 CR 2 creatures versus a party of three characters calculates to
        (adjusted) 8,100 encounter XP. (450 X 9 X 2.5; Basic Rules, p. 165).
        That is between Hard and Deadly for a party of three 9th-level
        characters
        . (3 x 2800 = 8,400 deadly for three 9th-level
        characters).





    See how it goes. There may still be a taste, at your table, for harder rather than easier encounters.



    For time saving: using an online tool like Kobold Fight Club may make creating and adjusting encounter crafting easier. (Thanks @NautArch)



    Step 3: ask the DM, "How's it going to be going forward?"



    This is the "session 0" for your group. Lethality level is a matter of taste in RPGs. Your whole group needs to discuss this matter with the DM, once the lethality levels of varying degrees have been experienced by the group. This is a chance to grow together as a gaming group.



    Vote to stay, or to go, based on the outcome of this process and the next few sessions.



    No, this isn't the easy way.



    But it might work. The DM might just need to get a "feel" for encounter building model for this edition. I did when I was starting out with 5e.



    For Pathfinder



    You can do something similar with the materials in the PFSRD, under the heading "Designing Encounters." The CR analysis and XP budgeting are similar, with the following caveat:




    ... Pathfinder - its CR system is pretty imprecise. I've seen a group of already battered, exhausted level 2 characters handle an EL 8 encounter with only one death, and I've seen the same players nearly TPK'd by an EL 8 encounter at level 7. There's a lot of variation even within a narrow CR range, depending on the players' and DM's respective tactics, the specific creatures and capabilities in play, and the whims of the dice. As a result, the stated guidelines tend to be fairly unhelpful for GMs looking to achieve a reasonable encounter difficulty @Brick the Toasted




    There have been similar criticisms of 5e's encounter modeling tools, but it's a place to start.






    share|improve this answer























    • I'm not sure I'd suggest this approach for Pathfinder - its CR system is pretty imprecise. I've seen a group of already battered, exhausted level 2 characters handle an EL 8 encounter with only one death, and I've seen the same players nearly TPK'd by an EL 8 encounter at level 7. There's a lot of variation even within a narrow CR range, depending on the players' and DM's respective tactics, the specific creatures and capabilities in play, and the whims of the dice. As a result, the stated guidelines tend to be fairly unhelpful for GMs looking to achieve a reasonable encounter difficulty.
      – Brick the Toasted
      Nov 20 at 23:07










    • @BricktheToasted Similar criticisms vis a vis 5e's CR based tools for encounter building. I added your caveat.
      – KorvinStarmast
      Nov 20 at 23:13








    • 1




      @BricktheToasted I'd say the encounters given show the DM needs help building encounters... they aren't even in the right ballpark. It's like throwing a baby to a pack of wolves.
      – TemporalWolf
      Nov 20 at 23:28


















    up vote
    11
    down vote













    Start Running away!



    Just run from every encounter (choose something fast). Avoid everything remotely risky. Eventually the GM will get the message.



    Running away can actually be a really fun way to play a campaign. The mechanics can be pretty interesting, and it can be fun to just play a group that is so scared of everything that they run away.






    share|improve this answer



















    • 8




      But also let him know why you are running. Communication is important.
      – Ling
      Nov 20 at 16:02






    • 36




      I've downvoted this, because it sounds like "do something that won't be fun for anyone; eventually the other party will read your mind, figure out why you're doing this awful thing, and change their behavior without you ever needing to go to the effort of communication."
      – Dan B
      Nov 20 at 16:15






    • 9




      Yeah, this seems very passive aggressive.
      – Wibbs
      Nov 20 at 16:22






    • 4




      Running away may be the right option at times, especially in a "living world" setting that does not take player level into account. With that said, doing it consistently will only frustrate everyone rather than sending an easily understood message.
      – TimothyAWiseman
      Nov 20 at 19:38






    • 3




      Responding to in-game stimuli with in-game responses is an effective way of communicating between player and DM, perhaps the most authentic way. It's also worthwhile to discuss the kind of game you're interested in playing with your DM outside the actual play. Think about what your DM has described both in-game and outside the game for his intentions--are you missing something by expecting balanced encounters? It may well be that you want to play in a different style from how your DM wants to administer the game, but that's not yet clear to this reader.
      – Tuorg
      Nov 21 at 1:34




















    up vote
    11
    down vote













    That encounter isn't for fighting



    My first run as DM, I threw a beholder at a level 2 party. They were like "Nope, not gonna fight that". Which worked out well, because the beholder didn't want to fight the party either, he had other problems. Ones with synergy to the goals of a level 2 good-aligned party.



    Obviously that was a quest progression encounter. That's exactly how you should treat impossible fights like this. But hold on.



    Force protection is the first priority. It's better to miss the story opportunity than have a TPK searching for quest lore on the tips of their swords.



    But (usually at least), the encounter wasn't "for no reason". The DM needs to be granted a reasonable opportunity for the purpose of the encounter to unfold. So that's the puzzle.



    Now there's a tendency these days for folks to assume the other fellow is a moron. Easy to fall into. Don't. So "the DM sucks" may be the answer to the puzzle, but it's not the way to bet.






    share|improve this answer























    • Good answer, and nicely framed as 'outside of the run of the mill response' ... I like answers like this.
      – KorvinStarmast
      Nov 21 at 19:41










    • double negative
      – Wyrmwood
      Nov 22 at 0:53










    • @Wyrmwood for flavor. Because I'm negating something, I need at least one. The statement sums up to positive, so it needs an even number. Come to think of it, what I'm negating is itself a negative notion, i.e. "For no reason". I enquoted it to make it clearer.
      – Harper
      Nov 22 at 1:30




















    up vote
    5
    down vote













    You provide no information about the GM, so be in dubio pro reo and talk to him outside the game and start by assuming that you missed something.



    As a GM, I never throw an impossible encounter to my characters unless we are playing Paranoia or Cthulhu. In the first case a TPK at least once an evening is expected and in the 2nd case running away is the default choice of any sane character anyways.



    So it is quite possible that your GM had assumed that you would know the critters can be splashed with regular water and will panic. Or that you actually had that magic crossbow the bard always talks about. Or that the wizard would use all his spells in this encounter which clearly required full power, or, or, or.



    Your first question could be if he expected you to win, lose or evade the encounter.



    Since it sounds like you are not playing with this GM so often, check if maybe his regular group likes tough encounters. Or he is used to them using every tiny advantage in the rules so that he needs to turn up the monster levels to keep encounters a challenge.



    Unless the GM is being deliberately unfair - which you should only conclude after examining other answers first - it appears that somewhere wrong assumptions were made. By you or by the GM. A discussion can clear that up, if nobody is pushed into defending themselves.






    share|improve this answer






























      up vote
      0
      down vote













      I can see you are struggling to find any fun, but remember that running from an encounter is ALWAYS an option.



      Also, some encounters while seeming without hope could be avoided, or even won with a little thinking "outside the box", and if the GM responds to it, with actions that conform with the rule of cool.



      But, all in all, running is always an option once you realize that you are out of your league.
      Most times running away to find another way to beat the boss makes for a really fun role playing, sometimes much better than struggling with creative thinking.






      share|improve this answer








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      Fanfurlio is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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      • " running from an encounter is ALWAYS an option." - not if you are completely surrounded it isn't.
        – Martin Bonner
        Nov 22 at 15:27










      • Or imprisoned. "The Pathfinder encounter was in a dungeon we were locked in"
        – Blindy
        Nov 22 at 20:50










      • @MartinBonner If you are completely surrounded, either at least one of the players has made some wrong choices, or the GM deliberately wants to kill the party, then the other answers (Reason with him) are more to the point.
        – Fanfurlio
        Nov 23 at 17:31












      • @Blindy I read that as "in a room we were locked in", because you can actually run away from the encounter and not exit the dungeon, maybe hide in some other room or cave; then, locks can be picked. Again, I assume that the GM isn't actually genuinely trying to kill the party.
        – Fanfurlio
        Nov 23 at 17:38











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      7 Answers
      7






      active

      oldest

      votes








      7 Answers
      7






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

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      up vote
      76
      down vote













      Talk to the DM



      Give non-accusatory feedback



      Express your point of view using neutral language and I statements. E.g. "When the encounter with 9 ogres ended in the death of all the characters, I felt helpless and it was not fun for me."



      Ask for feedback.



      Ask them if there were alternative endings they had in mind. It can take a while to get in sync with the other people's storytelling methods and ways of thinking about plots. Perhaps there was some secret or trick that they had expected the party to discover.



      Discuss game expectations and desires with Players and GM



      It sounds like your expectations for the game were not met. This may be the case for everyone involved. There are a number of ways to avoid or mitigate frustration in subsequent campaigns. Suggest doing a session 0 to facilitate this discussion.






      share|improve this answer



















      • 30




        This is the right answer, but I would also add asking the GM why they're presenting hard encounters. Is it a deliberate attempt to make the game gritty and challenging? Is it unintentional? Are they overestimating how powerful the party is? In my experience, the most common reason DMs present overpowered encounters is because of a misunderstanding of how CRs are calculated. I had known many DMs who thought a group of CR 1 monsters results in a CR 1 encounter. Understanding why the DM is doing this is very important when discussing this issue with them.
        – Cyrad
        Nov 20 at 16:51












      • Or the DM wanted to achieve a total party abduction (that's a decent way to start an adventure but I'd narrate it as it's not fun to play when the PCs can't do anything against it) and just forgot to offer "we'll let you live if you stop fighting and come with us" in the heat of the moment - or they said it but the players didn't catch it in the heat of the moment - that happens, especially to new DMs with groups they don't know well.
        – Sumyrda
        Nov 21 at 7:37






      • 4




        To add to this answer: Maybe suggest a tool like Kobold Fight Club. It gives an objective viewpoint of how hard your previous encounters were, and it can help your DM get a better view on what would be a fairer encounter.
        – Mortaza
        Nov 21 at 12:15















      up vote
      76
      down vote













      Talk to the DM



      Give non-accusatory feedback



      Express your point of view using neutral language and I statements. E.g. "When the encounter with 9 ogres ended in the death of all the characters, I felt helpless and it was not fun for me."



      Ask for feedback.



      Ask them if there were alternative endings they had in mind. It can take a while to get in sync with the other people's storytelling methods and ways of thinking about plots. Perhaps there was some secret or trick that they had expected the party to discover.



      Discuss game expectations and desires with Players and GM



      It sounds like your expectations for the game were not met. This may be the case for everyone involved. There are a number of ways to avoid or mitigate frustration in subsequent campaigns. Suggest doing a session 0 to facilitate this discussion.






      share|improve this answer



















      • 30




        This is the right answer, but I would also add asking the GM why they're presenting hard encounters. Is it a deliberate attempt to make the game gritty and challenging? Is it unintentional? Are they overestimating how powerful the party is? In my experience, the most common reason DMs present overpowered encounters is because of a misunderstanding of how CRs are calculated. I had known many DMs who thought a group of CR 1 monsters results in a CR 1 encounter. Understanding why the DM is doing this is very important when discussing this issue with them.
        – Cyrad
        Nov 20 at 16:51












      • Or the DM wanted to achieve a total party abduction (that's a decent way to start an adventure but I'd narrate it as it's not fun to play when the PCs can't do anything against it) and just forgot to offer "we'll let you live if you stop fighting and come with us" in the heat of the moment - or they said it but the players didn't catch it in the heat of the moment - that happens, especially to new DMs with groups they don't know well.
        – Sumyrda
        Nov 21 at 7:37






      • 4




        To add to this answer: Maybe suggest a tool like Kobold Fight Club. It gives an objective viewpoint of how hard your previous encounters were, and it can help your DM get a better view on what would be a fairer encounter.
        – Mortaza
        Nov 21 at 12:15













      up vote
      76
      down vote










      up vote
      76
      down vote









      Talk to the DM



      Give non-accusatory feedback



      Express your point of view using neutral language and I statements. E.g. "When the encounter with 9 ogres ended in the death of all the characters, I felt helpless and it was not fun for me."



      Ask for feedback.



      Ask them if there were alternative endings they had in mind. It can take a while to get in sync with the other people's storytelling methods and ways of thinking about plots. Perhaps there was some secret or trick that they had expected the party to discover.



      Discuss game expectations and desires with Players and GM



      It sounds like your expectations for the game were not met. This may be the case for everyone involved. There are a number of ways to avoid or mitigate frustration in subsequent campaigns. Suggest doing a session 0 to facilitate this discussion.






      share|improve this answer














      Talk to the DM



      Give non-accusatory feedback



      Express your point of view using neutral language and I statements. E.g. "When the encounter with 9 ogres ended in the death of all the characters, I felt helpless and it was not fun for me."



      Ask for feedback.



      Ask them if there were alternative endings they had in mind. It can take a while to get in sync with the other people's storytelling methods and ways of thinking about plots. Perhaps there was some secret or trick that they had expected the party to discover.



      Discuss game expectations and desires with Players and GM



      It sounds like your expectations for the game were not met. This may be the case for everyone involved. There are a number of ways to avoid or mitigate frustration in subsequent campaigns. Suggest doing a session 0 to facilitate this discussion.







      share|improve this answer














      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer








      edited yesterday

























      answered Nov 20 at 16:05









      Grosscol

      7,1421656




      7,1421656








      • 30




        This is the right answer, but I would also add asking the GM why they're presenting hard encounters. Is it a deliberate attempt to make the game gritty and challenging? Is it unintentional? Are they overestimating how powerful the party is? In my experience, the most common reason DMs present overpowered encounters is because of a misunderstanding of how CRs are calculated. I had known many DMs who thought a group of CR 1 monsters results in a CR 1 encounter. Understanding why the DM is doing this is very important when discussing this issue with them.
        – Cyrad
        Nov 20 at 16:51












      • Or the DM wanted to achieve a total party abduction (that's a decent way to start an adventure but I'd narrate it as it's not fun to play when the PCs can't do anything against it) and just forgot to offer "we'll let you live if you stop fighting and come with us" in the heat of the moment - or they said it but the players didn't catch it in the heat of the moment - that happens, especially to new DMs with groups they don't know well.
        – Sumyrda
        Nov 21 at 7:37






      • 4




        To add to this answer: Maybe suggest a tool like Kobold Fight Club. It gives an objective viewpoint of how hard your previous encounters were, and it can help your DM get a better view on what would be a fairer encounter.
        – Mortaza
        Nov 21 at 12:15














      • 30




        This is the right answer, but I would also add asking the GM why they're presenting hard encounters. Is it a deliberate attempt to make the game gritty and challenging? Is it unintentional? Are they overestimating how powerful the party is? In my experience, the most common reason DMs present overpowered encounters is because of a misunderstanding of how CRs are calculated. I had known many DMs who thought a group of CR 1 monsters results in a CR 1 encounter. Understanding why the DM is doing this is very important when discussing this issue with them.
        – Cyrad
        Nov 20 at 16:51












      • Or the DM wanted to achieve a total party abduction (that's a decent way to start an adventure but I'd narrate it as it's not fun to play when the PCs can't do anything against it) and just forgot to offer "we'll let you live if you stop fighting and come with us" in the heat of the moment - or they said it but the players didn't catch it in the heat of the moment - that happens, especially to new DMs with groups they don't know well.
        – Sumyrda
        Nov 21 at 7:37






      • 4




        To add to this answer: Maybe suggest a tool like Kobold Fight Club. It gives an objective viewpoint of how hard your previous encounters were, and it can help your DM get a better view on what would be a fairer encounter.
        – Mortaza
        Nov 21 at 12:15








      30




      30




      This is the right answer, but I would also add asking the GM why they're presenting hard encounters. Is it a deliberate attempt to make the game gritty and challenging? Is it unintentional? Are they overestimating how powerful the party is? In my experience, the most common reason DMs present overpowered encounters is because of a misunderstanding of how CRs are calculated. I had known many DMs who thought a group of CR 1 monsters results in a CR 1 encounter. Understanding why the DM is doing this is very important when discussing this issue with them.
      – Cyrad
      Nov 20 at 16:51






      This is the right answer, but I would also add asking the GM why they're presenting hard encounters. Is it a deliberate attempt to make the game gritty and challenging? Is it unintentional? Are they overestimating how powerful the party is? In my experience, the most common reason DMs present overpowered encounters is because of a misunderstanding of how CRs are calculated. I had known many DMs who thought a group of CR 1 monsters results in a CR 1 encounter. Understanding why the DM is doing this is very important when discussing this issue with them.
      – Cyrad
      Nov 20 at 16:51














      Or the DM wanted to achieve a total party abduction (that's a decent way to start an adventure but I'd narrate it as it's not fun to play when the PCs can't do anything against it) and just forgot to offer "we'll let you live if you stop fighting and come with us" in the heat of the moment - or they said it but the players didn't catch it in the heat of the moment - that happens, especially to new DMs with groups they don't know well.
      – Sumyrda
      Nov 21 at 7:37




      Or the DM wanted to achieve a total party abduction (that's a decent way to start an adventure but I'd narrate it as it's not fun to play when the PCs can't do anything against it) and just forgot to offer "we'll let you live if you stop fighting and come with us" in the heat of the moment - or they said it but the players didn't catch it in the heat of the moment - that happens, especially to new DMs with groups they don't know well.
      – Sumyrda
      Nov 21 at 7:37




      4




      4




      To add to this answer: Maybe suggest a tool like Kobold Fight Club. It gives an objective viewpoint of how hard your previous encounters were, and it can help your DM get a better view on what would be a fairer encounter.
      – Mortaza
      Nov 21 at 12:15




      To add to this answer: Maybe suggest a tool like Kobold Fight Club. It gives an objective viewpoint of how hard your previous encounters were, and it can help your DM get a better view on what would be a fairer encounter.
      – Mortaza
      Nov 21 at 12:15












      up vote
      18
      down vote













      You can say something like: "I didn't have fun in this game because you gave us an encounter that was far too difficult and we all died." That's a fair criticism.



      But, honestly, D&D is a game where you vote with your feet. The DM can narrate anything happening that they want; the players can leave the game and find a different DM if they're not having fun.



      My own policy is that, if someone TPKs my group in this way, I thank them politely for their time, and then I leave the game. You might try doing the same.






      share|improve this answer

























        up vote
        18
        down vote













        You can say something like: "I didn't have fun in this game because you gave us an encounter that was far too difficult and we all died." That's a fair criticism.



        But, honestly, D&D is a game where you vote with your feet. The DM can narrate anything happening that they want; the players can leave the game and find a different DM if they're not having fun.



        My own policy is that, if someone TPKs my group in this way, I thank them politely for their time, and then I leave the game. You might try doing the same.






        share|improve this answer























          up vote
          18
          down vote










          up vote
          18
          down vote









          You can say something like: "I didn't have fun in this game because you gave us an encounter that was far too difficult and we all died." That's a fair criticism.



          But, honestly, D&D is a game where you vote with your feet. The DM can narrate anything happening that they want; the players can leave the game and find a different DM if they're not having fun.



          My own policy is that, if someone TPKs my group in this way, I thank them politely for their time, and then I leave the game. You might try doing the same.






          share|improve this answer












          You can say something like: "I didn't have fun in this game because you gave us an encounter that was far too difficult and we all died." That's a fair criticism.



          But, honestly, D&D is a game where you vote with your feet. The DM can narrate anything happening that they want; the players can leave the game and find a different DM if they're not having fun.



          My own policy is that, if someone TPKs my group in this way, I thank them politely for their time, and then I leave the game. You might try doing the same.







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered Nov 20 at 16:30









          Dan B

          34.5k763135




          34.5k763135






















              up vote
              13
              down vote













              Step 1: Discuss with the DM the Basic Rules on How to Build an Encounter.



              This part of the answer is confined to D&D 5e.



              Step 1a: share this answer with your DM, as your judgment dictates.



              The Basic Rules have Encounter Building guidance on pages 165-167. Sit down with the DM and work through an encounter building exercise for level 1 characters. Build together an encounter for each difficulty: Easy, Medium, Hard, Deadly.



              Step 2: Ask DM to run one of each (difficulty) encounter at the next session.



              By running encounters at each difficulty level, the DM can get a rough idea about what this edition's encounter difficulty looks like.



              Then ask the DM to build and run a hard encounter that is built for a party of characters 2 levels higher than your characters.




              • For example: if you are all now level 2, have him build and run one for a party of level 4 characters. That's about 2000 XP adjusted. Two yetis (1400 x 1.5 = 2100) is close enough. A Wight and four Zombies would work also. (About 1800 XP adjusted)



              • The DM may still prefer, and your group may prefer, encounters at the
                deadly and deadly-plus level. With the above approach, "how to
                turn the dials up and down" will be better appreciated, as will how out-of-whack the initial encounter was for your group of three level 1 characters.




                • The 9 CR 2 creatures versus a party of three characters calculates to
                  (adjusted) 8,100 encounter XP. (450 X 9 X 2.5; Basic Rules, p. 165).
                  That is between Hard and Deadly for a party of three 9th-level
                  characters
                  . (3 x 2800 = 8,400 deadly for three 9th-level
                  characters).





              See how it goes. There may still be a taste, at your table, for harder rather than easier encounters.



              For time saving: using an online tool like Kobold Fight Club may make creating and adjusting encounter crafting easier. (Thanks @NautArch)



              Step 3: ask the DM, "How's it going to be going forward?"



              This is the "session 0" for your group. Lethality level is a matter of taste in RPGs. Your whole group needs to discuss this matter with the DM, once the lethality levels of varying degrees have been experienced by the group. This is a chance to grow together as a gaming group.



              Vote to stay, or to go, based on the outcome of this process and the next few sessions.



              No, this isn't the easy way.



              But it might work. The DM might just need to get a "feel" for encounter building model for this edition. I did when I was starting out with 5e.



              For Pathfinder



              You can do something similar with the materials in the PFSRD, under the heading "Designing Encounters." The CR analysis and XP budgeting are similar, with the following caveat:




              ... Pathfinder - its CR system is pretty imprecise. I've seen a group of already battered, exhausted level 2 characters handle an EL 8 encounter with only one death, and I've seen the same players nearly TPK'd by an EL 8 encounter at level 7. There's a lot of variation even within a narrow CR range, depending on the players' and DM's respective tactics, the specific creatures and capabilities in play, and the whims of the dice. As a result, the stated guidelines tend to be fairly unhelpful for GMs looking to achieve a reasonable encounter difficulty @Brick the Toasted




              There have been similar criticisms of 5e's encounter modeling tools, but it's a place to start.






              share|improve this answer























              • I'm not sure I'd suggest this approach for Pathfinder - its CR system is pretty imprecise. I've seen a group of already battered, exhausted level 2 characters handle an EL 8 encounter with only one death, and I've seen the same players nearly TPK'd by an EL 8 encounter at level 7. There's a lot of variation even within a narrow CR range, depending on the players' and DM's respective tactics, the specific creatures and capabilities in play, and the whims of the dice. As a result, the stated guidelines tend to be fairly unhelpful for GMs looking to achieve a reasonable encounter difficulty.
                – Brick the Toasted
                Nov 20 at 23:07










              • @BricktheToasted Similar criticisms vis a vis 5e's CR based tools for encounter building. I added your caveat.
                – KorvinStarmast
                Nov 20 at 23:13








              • 1




                @BricktheToasted I'd say the encounters given show the DM needs help building encounters... they aren't even in the right ballpark. It's like throwing a baby to a pack of wolves.
                – TemporalWolf
                Nov 20 at 23:28















              up vote
              13
              down vote













              Step 1: Discuss with the DM the Basic Rules on How to Build an Encounter.



              This part of the answer is confined to D&D 5e.



              Step 1a: share this answer with your DM, as your judgment dictates.



              The Basic Rules have Encounter Building guidance on pages 165-167. Sit down with the DM and work through an encounter building exercise for level 1 characters. Build together an encounter for each difficulty: Easy, Medium, Hard, Deadly.



              Step 2: Ask DM to run one of each (difficulty) encounter at the next session.



              By running encounters at each difficulty level, the DM can get a rough idea about what this edition's encounter difficulty looks like.



              Then ask the DM to build and run a hard encounter that is built for a party of characters 2 levels higher than your characters.




              • For example: if you are all now level 2, have him build and run one for a party of level 4 characters. That's about 2000 XP adjusted. Two yetis (1400 x 1.5 = 2100) is close enough. A Wight and four Zombies would work also. (About 1800 XP adjusted)



              • The DM may still prefer, and your group may prefer, encounters at the
                deadly and deadly-plus level. With the above approach, "how to
                turn the dials up and down" will be better appreciated, as will how out-of-whack the initial encounter was for your group of three level 1 characters.




                • The 9 CR 2 creatures versus a party of three characters calculates to
                  (adjusted) 8,100 encounter XP. (450 X 9 X 2.5; Basic Rules, p. 165).
                  That is between Hard and Deadly for a party of three 9th-level
                  characters
                  . (3 x 2800 = 8,400 deadly for three 9th-level
                  characters).





              See how it goes. There may still be a taste, at your table, for harder rather than easier encounters.



              For time saving: using an online tool like Kobold Fight Club may make creating and adjusting encounter crafting easier. (Thanks @NautArch)



              Step 3: ask the DM, "How's it going to be going forward?"



              This is the "session 0" for your group. Lethality level is a matter of taste in RPGs. Your whole group needs to discuss this matter with the DM, once the lethality levels of varying degrees have been experienced by the group. This is a chance to grow together as a gaming group.



              Vote to stay, or to go, based on the outcome of this process and the next few sessions.



              No, this isn't the easy way.



              But it might work. The DM might just need to get a "feel" for encounter building model for this edition. I did when I was starting out with 5e.



              For Pathfinder



              You can do something similar with the materials in the PFSRD, under the heading "Designing Encounters." The CR analysis and XP budgeting are similar, with the following caveat:




              ... Pathfinder - its CR system is pretty imprecise. I've seen a group of already battered, exhausted level 2 characters handle an EL 8 encounter with only one death, and I've seen the same players nearly TPK'd by an EL 8 encounter at level 7. There's a lot of variation even within a narrow CR range, depending on the players' and DM's respective tactics, the specific creatures and capabilities in play, and the whims of the dice. As a result, the stated guidelines tend to be fairly unhelpful for GMs looking to achieve a reasonable encounter difficulty @Brick the Toasted




              There have been similar criticisms of 5e's encounter modeling tools, but it's a place to start.






              share|improve this answer























              • I'm not sure I'd suggest this approach for Pathfinder - its CR system is pretty imprecise. I've seen a group of already battered, exhausted level 2 characters handle an EL 8 encounter with only one death, and I've seen the same players nearly TPK'd by an EL 8 encounter at level 7. There's a lot of variation even within a narrow CR range, depending on the players' and DM's respective tactics, the specific creatures and capabilities in play, and the whims of the dice. As a result, the stated guidelines tend to be fairly unhelpful for GMs looking to achieve a reasonable encounter difficulty.
                – Brick the Toasted
                Nov 20 at 23:07










              • @BricktheToasted Similar criticisms vis a vis 5e's CR based tools for encounter building. I added your caveat.
                – KorvinStarmast
                Nov 20 at 23:13








              • 1




                @BricktheToasted I'd say the encounters given show the DM needs help building encounters... they aren't even in the right ballpark. It's like throwing a baby to a pack of wolves.
                – TemporalWolf
                Nov 20 at 23:28













              up vote
              13
              down vote










              up vote
              13
              down vote









              Step 1: Discuss with the DM the Basic Rules on How to Build an Encounter.



              This part of the answer is confined to D&D 5e.



              Step 1a: share this answer with your DM, as your judgment dictates.



              The Basic Rules have Encounter Building guidance on pages 165-167. Sit down with the DM and work through an encounter building exercise for level 1 characters. Build together an encounter for each difficulty: Easy, Medium, Hard, Deadly.



              Step 2: Ask DM to run one of each (difficulty) encounter at the next session.



              By running encounters at each difficulty level, the DM can get a rough idea about what this edition's encounter difficulty looks like.



              Then ask the DM to build and run a hard encounter that is built for a party of characters 2 levels higher than your characters.




              • For example: if you are all now level 2, have him build and run one for a party of level 4 characters. That's about 2000 XP adjusted. Two yetis (1400 x 1.5 = 2100) is close enough. A Wight and four Zombies would work also. (About 1800 XP adjusted)



              • The DM may still prefer, and your group may prefer, encounters at the
                deadly and deadly-plus level. With the above approach, "how to
                turn the dials up and down" will be better appreciated, as will how out-of-whack the initial encounter was for your group of three level 1 characters.




                • The 9 CR 2 creatures versus a party of three characters calculates to
                  (adjusted) 8,100 encounter XP. (450 X 9 X 2.5; Basic Rules, p. 165).
                  That is between Hard and Deadly for a party of three 9th-level
                  characters
                  . (3 x 2800 = 8,400 deadly for three 9th-level
                  characters).





              See how it goes. There may still be a taste, at your table, for harder rather than easier encounters.



              For time saving: using an online tool like Kobold Fight Club may make creating and adjusting encounter crafting easier. (Thanks @NautArch)



              Step 3: ask the DM, "How's it going to be going forward?"



              This is the "session 0" for your group. Lethality level is a matter of taste in RPGs. Your whole group needs to discuss this matter with the DM, once the lethality levels of varying degrees have been experienced by the group. This is a chance to grow together as a gaming group.



              Vote to stay, or to go, based on the outcome of this process and the next few sessions.



              No, this isn't the easy way.



              But it might work. The DM might just need to get a "feel" for encounter building model for this edition. I did when I was starting out with 5e.



              For Pathfinder



              You can do something similar with the materials in the PFSRD, under the heading "Designing Encounters." The CR analysis and XP budgeting are similar, with the following caveat:




              ... Pathfinder - its CR system is pretty imprecise. I've seen a group of already battered, exhausted level 2 characters handle an EL 8 encounter with only one death, and I've seen the same players nearly TPK'd by an EL 8 encounter at level 7. There's a lot of variation even within a narrow CR range, depending on the players' and DM's respective tactics, the specific creatures and capabilities in play, and the whims of the dice. As a result, the stated guidelines tend to be fairly unhelpful for GMs looking to achieve a reasonable encounter difficulty @Brick the Toasted




              There have been similar criticisms of 5e's encounter modeling tools, but it's a place to start.






              share|improve this answer














              Step 1: Discuss with the DM the Basic Rules on How to Build an Encounter.



              This part of the answer is confined to D&D 5e.



              Step 1a: share this answer with your DM, as your judgment dictates.



              The Basic Rules have Encounter Building guidance on pages 165-167. Sit down with the DM and work through an encounter building exercise for level 1 characters. Build together an encounter for each difficulty: Easy, Medium, Hard, Deadly.



              Step 2: Ask DM to run one of each (difficulty) encounter at the next session.



              By running encounters at each difficulty level, the DM can get a rough idea about what this edition's encounter difficulty looks like.



              Then ask the DM to build and run a hard encounter that is built for a party of characters 2 levels higher than your characters.




              • For example: if you are all now level 2, have him build and run one for a party of level 4 characters. That's about 2000 XP adjusted. Two yetis (1400 x 1.5 = 2100) is close enough. A Wight and four Zombies would work also. (About 1800 XP adjusted)



              • The DM may still prefer, and your group may prefer, encounters at the
                deadly and deadly-plus level. With the above approach, "how to
                turn the dials up and down" will be better appreciated, as will how out-of-whack the initial encounter was for your group of three level 1 characters.




                • The 9 CR 2 creatures versus a party of three characters calculates to
                  (adjusted) 8,100 encounter XP. (450 X 9 X 2.5; Basic Rules, p. 165).
                  That is between Hard and Deadly for a party of three 9th-level
                  characters
                  . (3 x 2800 = 8,400 deadly for three 9th-level
                  characters).





              See how it goes. There may still be a taste, at your table, for harder rather than easier encounters.



              For time saving: using an online tool like Kobold Fight Club may make creating and adjusting encounter crafting easier. (Thanks @NautArch)



              Step 3: ask the DM, "How's it going to be going forward?"



              This is the "session 0" for your group. Lethality level is a matter of taste in RPGs. Your whole group needs to discuss this matter with the DM, once the lethality levels of varying degrees have been experienced by the group. This is a chance to grow together as a gaming group.



              Vote to stay, or to go, based on the outcome of this process and the next few sessions.



              No, this isn't the easy way.



              But it might work. The DM might just need to get a "feel" for encounter building model for this edition. I did when I was starting out with 5e.



              For Pathfinder



              You can do something similar with the materials in the PFSRD, under the heading "Designing Encounters." The CR analysis and XP budgeting are similar, with the following caveat:




              ... Pathfinder - its CR system is pretty imprecise. I've seen a group of already battered, exhausted level 2 characters handle an EL 8 encounter with only one death, and I've seen the same players nearly TPK'd by an EL 8 encounter at level 7. There's a lot of variation even within a narrow CR range, depending on the players' and DM's respective tactics, the specific creatures and capabilities in play, and the whims of the dice. As a result, the stated guidelines tend to be fairly unhelpful for GMs looking to achieve a reasonable encounter difficulty @Brick the Toasted




              There have been similar criticisms of 5e's encounter modeling tools, but it's a place to start.







              share|improve this answer














              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer








              edited Nov 21 at 19:39

























              answered Nov 20 at 17:50









              KorvinStarmast

              71.6k17224393




              71.6k17224393












              • I'm not sure I'd suggest this approach for Pathfinder - its CR system is pretty imprecise. I've seen a group of already battered, exhausted level 2 characters handle an EL 8 encounter with only one death, and I've seen the same players nearly TPK'd by an EL 8 encounter at level 7. There's a lot of variation even within a narrow CR range, depending on the players' and DM's respective tactics, the specific creatures and capabilities in play, and the whims of the dice. As a result, the stated guidelines tend to be fairly unhelpful for GMs looking to achieve a reasonable encounter difficulty.
                – Brick the Toasted
                Nov 20 at 23:07










              • @BricktheToasted Similar criticisms vis a vis 5e's CR based tools for encounter building. I added your caveat.
                – KorvinStarmast
                Nov 20 at 23:13








              • 1




                @BricktheToasted I'd say the encounters given show the DM needs help building encounters... they aren't even in the right ballpark. It's like throwing a baby to a pack of wolves.
                – TemporalWolf
                Nov 20 at 23:28


















              • I'm not sure I'd suggest this approach for Pathfinder - its CR system is pretty imprecise. I've seen a group of already battered, exhausted level 2 characters handle an EL 8 encounter with only one death, and I've seen the same players nearly TPK'd by an EL 8 encounter at level 7. There's a lot of variation even within a narrow CR range, depending on the players' and DM's respective tactics, the specific creatures and capabilities in play, and the whims of the dice. As a result, the stated guidelines tend to be fairly unhelpful for GMs looking to achieve a reasonable encounter difficulty.
                – Brick the Toasted
                Nov 20 at 23:07










              • @BricktheToasted Similar criticisms vis a vis 5e's CR based tools for encounter building. I added your caveat.
                – KorvinStarmast
                Nov 20 at 23:13








              • 1




                @BricktheToasted I'd say the encounters given show the DM needs help building encounters... they aren't even in the right ballpark. It's like throwing a baby to a pack of wolves.
                – TemporalWolf
                Nov 20 at 23:28
















              I'm not sure I'd suggest this approach for Pathfinder - its CR system is pretty imprecise. I've seen a group of already battered, exhausted level 2 characters handle an EL 8 encounter with only one death, and I've seen the same players nearly TPK'd by an EL 8 encounter at level 7. There's a lot of variation even within a narrow CR range, depending on the players' and DM's respective tactics, the specific creatures and capabilities in play, and the whims of the dice. As a result, the stated guidelines tend to be fairly unhelpful for GMs looking to achieve a reasonable encounter difficulty.
              – Brick the Toasted
              Nov 20 at 23:07




              I'm not sure I'd suggest this approach for Pathfinder - its CR system is pretty imprecise. I've seen a group of already battered, exhausted level 2 characters handle an EL 8 encounter with only one death, and I've seen the same players nearly TPK'd by an EL 8 encounter at level 7. There's a lot of variation even within a narrow CR range, depending on the players' and DM's respective tactics, the specific creatures and capabilities in play, and the whims of the dice. As a result, the stated guidelines tend to be fairly unhelpful for GMs looking to achieve a reasonable encounter difficulty.
              – Brick the Toasted
              Nov 20 at 23:07












              @BricktheToasted Similar criticisms vis a vis 5e's CR based tools for encounter building. I added your caveat.
              – KorvinStarmast
              Nov 20 at 23:13






              @BricktheToasted Similar criticisms vis a vis 5e's CR based tools for encounter building. I added your caveat.
              – KorvinStarmast
              Nov 20 at 23:13






              1




              1




              @BricktheToasted I'd say the encounters given show the DM needs help building encounters... they aren't even in the right ballpark. It's like throwing a baby to a pack of wolves.
              – TemporalWolf
              Nov 20 at 23:28




              @BricktheToasted I'd say the encounters given show the DM needs help building encounters... they aren't even in the right ballpark. It's like throwing a baby to a pack of wolves.
              – TemporalWolf
              Nov 20 at 23:28










              up vote
              11
              down vote













              Start Running away!



              Just run from every encounter (choose something fast). Avoid everything remotely risky. Eventually the GM will get the message.



              Running away can actually be a really fun way to play a campaign. The mechanics can be pretty interesting, and it can be fun to just play a group that is so scared of everything that they run away.






              share|improve this answer



















              • 8




                But also let him know why you are running. Communication is important.
                – Ling
                Nov 20 at 16:02






              • 36




                I've downvoted this, because it sounds like "do something that won't be fun for anyone; eventually the other party will read your mind, figure out why you're doing this awful thing, and change their behavior without you ever needing to go to the effort of communication."
                – Dan B
                Nov 20 at 16:15






              • 9




                Yeah, this seems very passive aggressive.
                – Wibbs
                Nov 20 at 16:22






              • 4




                Running away may be the right option at times, especially in a "living world" setting that does not take player level into account. With that said, doing it consistently will only frustrate everyone rather than sending an easily understood message.
                – TimothyAWiseman
                Nov 20 at 19:38






              • 3




                Responding to in-game stimuli with in-game responses is an effective way of communicating between player and DM, perhaps the most authentic way. It's also worthwhile to discuss the kind of game you're interested in playing with your DM outside the actual play. Think about what your DM has described both in-game and outside the game for his intentions--are you missing something by expecting balanced encounters? It may well be that you want to play in a different style from how your DM wants to administer the game, but that's not yet clear to this reader.
                – Tuorg
                Nov 21 at 1:34

















              up vote
              11
              down vote













              Start Running away!



              Just run from every encounter (choose something fast). Avoid everything remotely risky. Eventually the GM will get the message.



              Running away can actually be a really fun way to play a campaign. The mechanics can be pretty interesting, and it can be fun to just play a group that is so scared of everything that they run away.






              share|improve this answer



















              • 8




                But also let him know why you are running. Communication is important.
                – Ling
                Nov 20 at 16:02






              • 36




                I've downvoted this, because it sounds like "do something that won't be fun for anyone; eventually the other party will read your mind, figure out why you're doing this awful thing, and change their behavior without you ever needing to go to the effort of communication."
                – Dan B
                Nov 20 at 16:15






              • 9




                Yeah, this seems very passive aggressive.
                – Wibbs
                Nov 20 at 16:22






              • 4




                Running away may be the right option at times, especially in a "living world" setting that does not take player level into account. With that said, doing it consistently will only frustrate everyone rather than sending an easily understood message.
                – TimothyAWiseman
                Nov 20 at 19:38






              • 3




                Responding to in-game stimuli with in-game responses is an effective way of communicating between player and DM, perhaps the most authentic way. It's also worthwhile to discuss the kind of game you're interested in playing with your DM outside the actual play. Think about what your DM has described both in-game and outside the game for his intentions--are you missing something by expecting balanced encounters? It may well be that you want to play in a different style from how your DM wants to administer the game, but that's not yet clear to this reader.
                – Tuorg
                Nov 21 at 1:34















              up vote
              11
              down vote










              up vote
              11
              down vote









              Start Running away!



              Just run from every encounter (choose something fast). Avoid everything remotely risky. Eventually the GM will get the message.



              Running away can actually be a really fun way to play a campaign. The mechanics can be pretty interesting, and it can be fun to just play a group that is so scared of everything that they run away.






              share|improve this answer














              Start Running away!



              Just run from every encounter (choose something fast). Avoid everything remotely risky. Eventually the GM will get the message.



              Running away can actually be a really fun way to play a campaign. The mechanics can be pretty interesting, and it can be fun to just play a group that is so scared of everything that they run away.







              share|improve this answer














              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer








              edited Nov 20 at 17:35

























              answered Nov 20 at 15:59









              Mathaddict

              4306




              4306








              • 8




                But also let him know why you are running. Communication is important.
                – Ling
                Nov 20 at 16:02






              • 36




                I've downvoted this, because it sounds like "do something that won't be fun for anyone; eventually the other party will read your mind, figure out why you're doing this awful thing, and change their behavior without you ever needing to go to the effort of communication."
                – Dan B
                Nov 20 at 16:15






              • 9




                Yeah, this seems very passive aggressive.
                – Wibbs
                Nov 20 at 16:22






              • 4




                Running away may be the right option at times, especially in a "living world" setting that does not take player level into account. With that said, doing it consistently will only frustrate everyone rather than sending an easily understood message.
                – TimothyAWiseman
                Nov 20 at 19:38






              • 3




                Responding to in-game stimuli with in-game responses is an effective way of communicating between player and DM, perhaps the most authentic way. It's also worthwhile to discuss the kind of game you're interested in playing with your DM outside the actual play. Think about what your DM has described both in-game and outside the game for his intentions--are you missing something by expecting balanced encounters? It may well be that you want to play in a different style from how your DM wants to administer the game, but that's not yet clear to this reader.
                – Tuorg
                Nov 21 at 1:34
















              • 8




                But also let him know why you are running. Communication is important.
                – Ling
                Nov 20 at 16:02






              • 36




                I've downvoted this, because it sounds like "do something that won't be fun for anyone; eventually the other party will read your mind, figure out why you're doing this awful thing, and change their behavior without you ever needing to go to the effort of communication."
                – Dan B
                Nov 20 at 16:15






              • 9




                Yeah, this seems very passive aggressive.
                – Wibbs
                Nov 20 at 16:22






              • 4




                Running away may be the right option at times, especially in a "living world" setting that does not take player level into account. With that said, doing it consistently will only frustrate everyone rather than sending an easily understood message.
                – TimothyAWiseman
                Nov 20 at 19:38






              • 3




                Responding to in-game stimuli with in-game responses is an effective way of communicating between player and DM, perhaps the most authentic way. It's also worthwhile to discuss the kind of game you're interested in playing with your DM outside the actual play. Think about what your DM has described both in-game and outside the game for his intentions--are you missing something by expecting balanced encounters? It may well be that you want to play in a different style from how your DM wants to administer the game, but that's not yet clear to this reader.
                – Tuorg
                Nov 21 at 1:34










              8




              8




              But also let him know why you are running. Communication is important.
              – Ling
              Nov 20 at 16:02




              But also let him know why you are running. Communication is important.
              – Ling
              Nov 20 at 16:02




              36




              36




              I've downvoted this, because it sounds like "do something that won't be fun for anyone; eventually the other party will read your mind, figure out why you're doing this awful thing, and change their behavior without you ever needing to go to the effort of communication."
              – Dan B
              Nov 20 at 16:15




              I've downvoted this, because it sounds like "do something that won't be fun for anyone; eventually the other party will read your mind, figure out why you're doing this awful thing, and change their behavior without you ever needing to go to the effort of communication."
              – Dan B
              Nov 20 at 16:15




              9




              9




              Yeah, this seems very passive aggressive.
              – Wibbs
              Nov 20 at 16:22




              Yeah, this seems very passive aggressive.
              – Wibbs
              Nov 20 at 16:22




              4




              4




              Running away may be the right option at times, especially in a "living world" setting that does not take player level into account. With that said, doing it consistently will only frustrate everyone rather than sending an easily understood message.
              – TimothyAWiseman
              Nov 20 at 19:38




              Running away may be the right option at times, especially in a "living world" setting that does not take player level into account. With that said, doing it consistently will only frustrate everyone rather than sending an easily understood message.
              – TimothyAWiseman
              Nov 20 at 19:38




              3




              3




              Responding to in-game stimuli with in-game responses is an effective way of communicating between player and DM, perhaps the most authentic way. It's also worthwhile to discuss the kind of game you're interested in playing with your DM outside the actual play. Think about what your DM has described both in-game and outside the game for his intentions--are you missing something by expecting balanced encounters? It may well be that you want to play in a different style from how your DM wants to administer the game, but that's not yet clear to this reader.
              – Tuorg
              Nov 21 at 1:34






              Responding to in-game stimuli with in-game responses is an effective way of communicating between player and DM, perhaps the most authentic way. It's also worthwhile to discuss the kind of game you're interested in playing with your DM outside the actual play. Think about what your DM has described both in-game and outside the game for his intentions--are you missing something by expecting balanced encounters? It may well be that you want to play in a different style from how your DM wants to administer the game, but that's not yet clear to this reader.
              – Tuorg
              Nov 21 at 1:34












              up vote
              11
              down vote













              That encounter isn't for fighting



              My first run as DM, I threw a beholder at a level 2 party. They were like "Nope, not gonna fight that". Which worked out well, because the beholder didn't want to fight the party either, he had other problems. Ones with synergy to the goals of a level 2 good-aligned party.



              Obviously that was a quest progression encounter. That's exactly how you should treat impossible fights like this. But hold on.



              Force protection is the first priority. It's better to miss the story opportunity than have a TPK searching for quest lore on the tips of their swords.



              But (usually at least), the encounter wasn't "for no reason". The DM needs to be granted a reasonable opportunity for the purpose of the encounter to unfold. So that's the puzzle.



              Now there's a tendency these days for folks to assume the other fellow is a moron. Easy to fall into. Don't. So "the DM sucks" may be the answer to the puzzle, but it's not the way to bet.






              share|improve this answer























              • Good answer, and nicely framed as 'outside of the run of the mill response' ... I like answers like this.
                – KorvinStarmast
                Nov 21 at 19:41










              • double negative
                – Wyrmwood
                Nov 22 at 0:53










              • @Wyrmwood for flavor. Because I'm negating something, I need at least one. The statement sums up to positive, so it needs an even number. Come to think of it, what I'm negating is itself a negative notion, i.e. "For no reason". I enquoted it to make it clearer.
                – Harper
                Nov 22 at 1:30

















              up vote
              11
              down vote













              That encounter isn't for fighting



              My first run as DM, I threw a beholder at a level 2 party. They were like "Nope, not gonna fight that". Which worked out well, because the beholder didn't want to fight the party either, he had other problems. Ones with synergy to the goals of a level 2 good-aligned party.



              Obviously that was a quest progression encounter. That's exactly how you should treat impossible fights like this. But hold on.



              Force protection is the first priority. It's better to miss the story opportunity than have a TPK searching for quest lore on the tips of their swords.



              But (usually at least), the encounter wasn't "for no reason". The DM needs to be granted a reasonable opportunity for the purpose of the encounter to unfold. So that's the puzzle.



              Now there's a tendency these days for folks to assume the other fellow is a moron. Easy to fall into. Don't. So "the DM sucks" may be the answer to the puzzle, but it's not the way to bet.






              share|improve this answer























              • Good answer, and nicely framed as 'outside of the run of the mill response' ... I like answers like this.
                – KorvinStarmast
                Nov 21 at 19:41










              • double negative
                – Wyrmwood
                Nov 22 at 0:53










              • @Wyrmwood for flavor. Because I'm negating something, I need at least one. The statement sums up to positive, so it needs an even number. Come to think of it, what I'm negating is itself a negative notion, i.e. "For no reason". I enquoted it to make it clearer.
                – Harper
                Nov 22 at 1:30















              up vote
              11
              down vote










              up vote
              11
              down vote









              That encounter isn't for fighting



              My first run as DM, I threw a beholder at a level 2 party. They were like "Nope, not gonna fight that". Which worked out well, because the beholder didn't want to fight the party either, he had other problems. Ones with synergy to the goals of a level 2 good-aligned party.



              Obviously that was a quest progression encounter. That's exactly how you should treat impossible fights like this. But hold on.



              Force protection is the first priority. It's better to miss the story opportunity than have a TPK searching for quest lore on the tips of their swords.



              But (usually at least), the encounter wasn't "for no reason". The DM needs to be granted a reasonable opportunity for the purpose of the encounter to unfold. So that's the puzzle.



              Now there's a tendency these days for folks to assume the other fellow is a moron. Easy to fall into. Don't. So "the DM sucks" may be the answer to the puzzle, but it's not the way to bet.






              share|improve this answer














              That encounter isn't for fighting



              My first run as DM, I threw a beholder at a level 2 party. They were like "Nope, not gonna fight that". Which worked out well, because the beholder didn't want to fight the party either, he had other problems. Ones with synergy to the goals of a level 2 good-aligned party.



              Obviously that was a quest progression encounter. That's exactly how you should treat impossible fights like this. But hold on.



              Force protection is the first priority. It's better to miss the story opportunity than have a TPK searching for quest lore on the tips of their swords.



              But (usually at least), the encounter wasn't "for no reason". The DM needs to be granted a reasonable opportunity for the purpose of the encounter to unfold. So that's the puzzle.



              Now there's a tendency these days for folks to assume the other fellow is a moron. Easy to fall into. Don't. So "the DM sucks" may be the answer to the puzzle, but it's not the way to bet.







              share|improve this answer














              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer








              edited Nov 22 at 1:23

























              answered Nov 21 at 19:17









              Harper

              77737




              77737












              • Good answer, and nicely framed as 'outside of the run of the mill response' ... I like answers like this.
                – KorvinStarmast
                Nov 21 at 19:41










              • double negative
                – Wyrmwood
                Nov 22 at 0:53










              • @Wyrmwood for flavor. Because I'm negating something, I need at least one. The statement sums up to positive, so it needs an even number. Come to think of it, what I'm negating is itself a negative notion, i.e. "For no reason". I enquoted it to make it clearer.
                – Harper
                Nov 22 at 1:30




















              • Good answer, and nicely framed as 'outside of the run of the mill response' ... I like answers like this.
                – KorvinStarmast
                Nov 21 at 19:41










              • double negative
                – Wyrmwood
                Nov 22 at 0:53










              • @Wyrmwood for flavor. Because I'm negating something, I need at least one. The statement sums up to positive, so it needs an even number. Come to think of it, what I'm negating is itself a negative notion, i.e. "For no reason". I enquoted it to make it clearer.
                – Harper
                Nov 22 at 1:30


















              Good answer, and nicely framed as 'outside of the run of the mill response' ... I like answers like this.
              – KorvinStarmast
              Nov 21 at 19:41




              Good answer, and nicely framed as 'outside of the run of the mill response' ... I like answers like this.
              – KorvinStarmast
              Nov 21 at 19:41












              double negative
              – Wyrmwood
              Nov 22 at 0:53




              double negative
              – Wyrmwood
              Nov 22 at 0:53












              @Wyrmwood for flavor. Because I'm negating something, I need at least one. The statement sums up to positive, so it needs an even number. Come to think of it, what I'm negating is itself a negative notion, i.e. "For no reason". I enquoted it to make it clearer.
              – Harper
              Nov 22 at 1:30






              @Wyrmwood for flavor. Because I'm negating something, I need at least one. The statement sums up to positive, so it needs an even number. Come to think of it, what I'm negating is itself a negative notion, i.e. "For no reason". I enquoted it to make it clearer.
              – Harper
              Nov 22 at 1:30












              up vote
              5
              down vote













              You provide no information about the GM, so be in dubio pro reo and talk to him outside the game and start by assuming that you missed something.



              As a GM, I never throw an impossible encounter to my characters unless we are playing Paranoia or Cthulhu. In the first case a TPK at least once an evening is expected and in the 2nd case running away is the default choice of any sane character anyways.



              So it is quite possible that your GM had assumed that you would know the critters can be splashed with regular water and will panic. Or that you actually had that magic crossbow the bard always talks about. Or that the wizard would use all his spells in this encounter which clearly required full power, or, or, or.



              Your first question could be if he expected you to win, lose or evade the encounter.



              Since it sounds like you are not playing with this GM so often, check if maybe his regular group likes tough encounters. Or he is used to them using every tiny advantage in the rules so that he needs to turn up the monster levels to keep encounters a challenge.



              Unless the GM is being deliberately unfair - which you should only conclude after examining other answers first - it appears that somewhere wrong assumptions were made. By you or by the GM. A discussion can clear that up, if nobody is pushed into defending themselves.






              share|improve this answer



























                up vote
                5
                down vote













                You provide no information about the GM, so be in dubio pro reo and talk to him outside the game and start by assuming that you missed something.



                As a GM, I never throw an impossible encounter to my characters unless we are playing Paranoia or Cthulhu. In the first case a TPK at least once an evening is expected and in the 2nd case running away is the default choice of any sane character anyways.



                So it is quite possible that your GM had assumed that you would know the critters can be splashed with regular water and will panic. Or that you actually had that magic crossbow the bard always talks about. Or that the wizard would use all his spells in this encounter which clearly required full power, or, or, or.



                Your first question could be if he expected you to win, lose or evade the encounter.



                Since it sounds like you are not playing with this GM so often, check if maybe his regular group likes tough encounters. Or he is used to them using every tiny advantage in the rules so that he needs to turn up the monster levels to keep encounters a challenge.



                Unless the GM is being deliberately unfair - which you should only conclude after examining other answers first - it appears that somewhere wrong assumptions were made. By you or by the GM. A discussion can clear that up, if nobody is pushed into defending themselves.






                share|improve this answer

























                  up vote
                  5
                  down vote










                  up vote
                  5
                  down vote









                  You provide no information about the GM, so be in dubio pro reo and talk to him outside the game and start by assuming that you missed something.



                  As a GM, I never throw an impossible encounter to my characters unless we are playing Paranoia or Cthulhu. In the first case a TPK at least once an evening is expected and in the 2nd case running away is the default choice of any sane character anyways.



                  So it is quite possible that your GM had assumed that you would know the critters can be splashed with regular water and will panic. Or that you actually had that magic crossbow the bard always talks about. Or that the wizard would use all his spells in this encounter which clearly required full power, or, or, or.



                  Your first question could be if he expected you to win, lose or evade the encounter.



                  Since it sounds like you are not playing with this GM so often, check if maybe his regular group likes tough encounters. Or he is used to them using every tiny advantage in the rules so that he needs to turn up the monster levels to keep encounters a challenge.



                  Unless the GM is being deliberately unfair - which you should only conclude after examining other answers first - it appears that somewhere wrong assumptions were made. By you or by the GM. A discussion can clear that up, if nobody is pushed into defending themselves.






                  share|improve this answer














                  You provide no information about the GM, so be in dubio pro reo and talk to him outside the game and start by assuming that you missed something.



                  As a GM, I never throw an impossible encounter to my characters unless we are playing Paranoia or Cthulhu. In the first case a TPK at least once an evening is expected and in the 2nd case running away is the default choice of any sane character anyways.



                  So it is quite possible that your GM had assumed that you would know the critters can be splashed with regular water and will panic. Or that you actually had that magic crossbow the bard always talks about. Or that the wizard would use all his spells in this encounter which clearly required full power, or, or, or.



                  Your first question could be if he expected you to win, lose or evade the encounter.



                  Since it sounds like you are not playing with this GM so often, check if maybe his regular group likes tough encounters. Or he is used to them using every tiny advantage in the rules so that he needs to turn up the monster levels to keep encounters a challenge.



                  Unless the GM is being deliberately unfair - which you should only conclude after examining other answers first - it appears that somewhere wrong assumptions were made. By you or by the GM. A discussion can clear that up, if nobody is pushed into defending themselves.







                  share|improve this answer














                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer








                  edited Nov 21 at 14:44









                  Wibbs

                  14.5k64389




                  14.5k64389










                  answered Nov 21 at 14:28









                  Tom

                  1,03525




                  1,03525






















                      up vote
                      0
                      down vote













                      I can see you are struggling to find any fun, but remember that running from an encounter is ALWAYS an option.



                      Also, some encounters while seeming without hope could be avoided, or even won with a little thinking "outside the box", and if the GM responds to it, with actions that conform with the rule of cool.



                      But, all in all, running is always an option once you realize that you are out of your league.
                      Most times running away to find another way to beat the boss makes for a really fun role playing, sometimes much better than struggling with creative thinking.






                      share|improve this answer








                      New contributor




                      Fanfurlio is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                      Check out our Code of Conduct.


















                      • " running from an encounter is ALWAYS an option." - not if you are completely surrounded it isn't.
                        – Martin Bonner
                        Nov 22 at 15:27










                      • Or imprisoned. "The Pathfinder encounter was in a dungeon we were locked in"
                        – Blindy
                        Nov 22 at 20:50










                      • @MartinBonner If you are completely surrounded, either at least one of the players has made some wrong choices, or the GM deliberately wants to kill the party, then the other answers (Reason with him) are more to the point.
                        – Fanfurlio
                        Nov 23 at 17:31












                      • @Blindy I read that as "in a room we were locked in", because you can actually run away from the encounter and not exit the dungeon, maybe hide in some other room or cave; then, locks can be picked. Again, I assume that the GM isn't actually genuinely trying to kill the party.
                        – Fanfurlio
                        Nov 23 at 17:38















                      up vote
                      0
                      down vote













                      I can see you are struggling to find any fun, but remember that running from an encounter is ALWAYS an option.



                      Also, some encounters while seeming without hope could be avoided, or even won with a little thinking "outside the box", and if the GM responds to it, with actions that conform with the rule of cool.



                      But, all in all, running is always an option once you realize that you are out of your league.
                      Most times running away to find another way to beat the boss makes for a really fun role playing, sometimes much better than struggling with creative thinking.






                      share|improve this answer








                      New contributor




                      Fanfurlio is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                      Check out our Code of Conduct.


















                      • " running from an encounter is ALWAYS an option." - not if you are completely surrounded it isn't.
                        – Martin Bonner
                        Nov 22 at 15:27










                      • Or imprisoned. "The Pathfinder encounter was in a dungeon we were locked in"
                        – Blindy
                        Nov 22 at 20:50










                      • @MartinBonner If you are completely surrounded, either at least one of the players has made some wrong choices, or the GM deliberately wants to kill the party, then the other answers (Reason with him) are more to the point.
                        – Fanfurlio
                        Nov 23 at 17:31












                      • @Blindy I read that as "in a room we were locked in", because you can actually run away from the encounter and not exit the dungeon, maybe hide in some other room or cave; then, locks can be picked. Again, I assume that the GM isn't actually genuinely trying to kill the party.
                        – Fanfurlio
                        Nov 23 at 17:38













                      up vote
                      0
                      down vote










                      up vote
                      0
                      down vote









                      I can see you are struggling to find any fun, but remember that running from an encounter is ALWAYS an option.



                      Also, some encounters while seeming without hope could be avoided, or even won with a little thinking "outside the box", and if the GM responds to it, with actions that conform with the rule of cool.



                      But, all in all, running is always an option once you realize that you are out of your league.
                      Most times running away to find another way to beat the boss makes for a really fun role playing, sometimes much better than struggling with creative thinking.






                      share|improve this answer








                      New contributor




                      Fanfurlio is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                      Check out our Code of Conduct.









                      I can see you are struggling to find any fun, but remember that running from an encounter is ALWAYS an option.



                      Also, some encounters while seeming without hope could be avoided, or even won with a little thinking "outside the box", and if the GM responds to it, with actions that conform with the rule of cool.



                      But, all in all, running is always an option once you realize that you are out of your league.
                      Most times running away to find another way to beat the boss makes for a really fun role playing, sometimes much better than struggling with creative thinking.







                      share|improve this answer








                      New contributor




                      Fanfurlio is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                      Check out our Code of Conduct.









                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer






                      New contributor




                      Fanfurlio is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                      Check out our Code of Conduct.









                      answered Nov 22 at 13:12









                      Fanfurlio

                      11




                      11




                      New contributor




                      Fanfurlio is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                      Check out our Code of Conduct.





                      New contributor





                      Fanfurlio is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                      Check out our Code of Conduct.






                      Fanfurlio is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                      Check out our Code of Conduct.












                      • " running from an encounter is ALWAYS an option." - not if you are completely surrounded it isn't.
                        – Martin Bonner
                        Nov 22 at 15:27










                      • Or imprisoned. "The Pathfinder encounter was in a dungeon we were locked in"
                        – Blindy
                        Nov 22 at 20:50










                      • @MartinBonner If you are completely surrounded, either at least one of the players has made some wrong choices, or the GM deliberately wants to kill the party, then the other answers (Reason with him) are more to the point.
                        – Fanfurlio
                        Nov 23 at 17:31












                      • @Blindy I read that as "in a room we were locked in", because you can actually run away from the encounter and not exit the dungeon, maybe hide in some other room or cave; then, locks can be picked. Again, I assume that the GM isn't actually genuinely trying to kill the party.
                        – Fanfurlio
                        Nov 23 at 17:38


















                      • " running from an encounter is ALWAYS an option." - not if you are completely surrounded it isn't.
                        – Martin Bonner
                        Nov 22 at 15:27










                      • Or imprisoned. "The Pathfinder encounter was in a dungeon we were locked in"
                        – Blindy
                        Nov 22 at 20:50










                      • @MartinBonner If you are completely surrounded, either at least one of the players has made some wrong choices, or the GM deliberately wants to kill the party, then the other answers (Reason with him) are more to the point.
                        – Fanfurlio
                        Nov 23 at 17:31












                      • @Blindy I read that as "in a room we were locked in", because you can actually run away from the encounter and not exit the dungeon, maybe hide in some other room or cave; then, locks can be picked. Again, I assume that the GM isn't actually genuinely trying to kill the party.
                        – Fanfurlio
                        Nov 23 at 17:38
















                      " running from an encounter is ALWAYS an option." - not if you are completely surrounded it isn't.
                      – Martin Bonner
                      Nov 22 at 15:27




                      " running from an encounter is ALWAYS an option." - not if you are completely surrounded it isn't.
                      – Martin Bonner
                      Nov 22 at 15:27












                      Or imprisoned. "The Pathfinder encounter was in a dungeon we were locked in"
                      – Blindy
                      Nov 22 at 20:50




                      Or imprisoned. "The Pathfinder encounter was in a dungeon we were locked in"
                      – Blindy
                      Nov 22 at 20:50












                      @MartinBonner If you are completely surrounded, either at least one of the players has made some wrong choices, or the GM deliberately wants to kill the party, then the other answers (Reason with him) are more to the point.
                      – Fanfurlio
                      Nov 23 at 17:31






                      @MartinBonner If you are completely surrounded, either at least one of the players has made some wrong choices, or the GM deliberately wants to kill the party, then the other answers (Reason with him) are more to the point.
                      – Fanfurlio
                      Nov 23 at 17:31














                      @Blindy I read that as "in a room we were locked in", because you can actually run away from the encounter and not exit the dungeon, maybe hide in some other room or cave; then, locks can be picked. Again, I assume that the GM isn't actually genuinely trying to kill the party.
                      – Fanfurlio
                      Nov 23 at 17:38




                      @Blindy I read that as "in a room we were locked in", because you can actually run away from the encounter and not exit the dungeon, maybe hide in some other room or cave; then, locks can be picked. Again, I assume that the GM isn't actually genuinely trying to kill the party.
                      – Fanfurlio
                      Nov 23 at 17:38


















                       

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