Why do people say “I have known someone to do” but not “I know someone to do”?












8














The structure I have known someone to do something is apparently considered grammatical and idiomatic. Examples from Google:




I have known people to take shops, put in a few articles and, without opening the doors, to sell the premises for as much as £1,000. (New Zealand Parliament)



I have known people to temporarily lose interest in sex and believe the problem was in their marriage but later realize that it was grief.



I have known people to lose battles with brain tumours, cancer, to become disabled, and to become very ill.




In contrast, I know/knew someone to do something is not a thing that people say. Apparently you can't say "I knew some people to drink coffee around midnight.*" Why is that? What is special about the structure I have known someone to do something that validates it as grammatical?






phrases expressions structure







share|improve this question


















  • 4




    Good question. I believe that this is merely customary, but you almost certainly should get a better answer than that. Welcome to EL&U.
    – Robusto
    6 hours ago






  • 1




    I know someone to fix her car is just a less common version of I know someone who can fix her car. But I have known someone to fix her car is a completely different utterance. Often, the speaker wouldn't actually be acquainted with anyone who had previously fixed her car - it just means I am aware that [at least once] in the past someone fixed her car.
    – FumbleFingers
    6 hours ago






  • 1




    I know him to buy paintings at auctions; I know her to spend hours reading gravestones in churchyards; I know them to be fighting the government on several issues. Less familiar to the non-native speaker, but nothing special about the structure — it can work in the present tense if it is transformed properly, as in my examples.
    – David
    4 hours ago








  • 1




    I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because it is based on a false premise, as explained in my comment.
    – David
    4 hours ago






  • 1




    @David Hmm, "if it is transformed properly". You seem to be saying no one in the Internet equipped world knows how to transform "I know people to" properly. Google hits: 0. google.com/…
    – L. Moneta
    4 hours ago


















8














The structure I have known someone to do something is apparently considered grammatical and idiomatic. Examples from Google:




I have known people to take shops, put in a few articles and, without opening the doors, to sell the premises for as much as £1,000. (New Zealand Parliament)



I have known people to temporarily lose interest in sex and believe the problem was in their marriage but later realize that it was grief.



I have known people to lose battles with brain tumours, cancer, to become disabled, and to become very ill.




In contrast, I know/knew someone to do something is not a thing that people say. Apparently you can't say "I knew some people to drink coffee around midnight.*" Why is that? What is special about the structure I have known someone to do something that validates it as grammatical?






phrases expressions structure







share|improve this question


















  • 4




    Good question. I believe that this is merely customary, but you almost certainly should get a better answer than that. Welcome to EL&U.
    – Robusto
    6 hours ago






  • 1




    I know someone to fix her car is just a less common version of I know someone who can fix her car. But I have known someone to fix her car is a completely different utterance. Often, the speaker wouldn't actually be acquainted with anyone who had previously fixed her car - it just means I am aware that [at least once] in the past someone fixed her car.
    – FumbleFingers
    6 hours ago






  • 1




    I know him to buy paintings at auctions; I know her to spend hours reading gravestones in churchyards; I know them to be fighting the government on several issues. Less familiar to the non-native speaker, but nothing special about the structure — it can work in the present tense if it is transformed properly, as in my examples.
    – David
    4 hours ago








  • 1




    I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because it is based on a false premise, as explained in my comment.
    – David
    4 hours ago






  • 1




    @David Hmm, "if it is transformed properly". You seem to be saying no one in the Internet equipped world knows how to transform "I know people to" properly. Google hits: 0. google.com/…
    – L. Moneta
    4 hours ago
















8












8








8







The structure I have known someone to do something is apparently considered grammatical and idiomatic. Examples from Google:




I have known people to take shops, put in a few articles and, without opening the doors, to sell the premises for as much as £1,000. (New Zealand Parliament)



I have known people to temporarily lose interest in sex and believe the problem was in their marriage but later realize that it was grief.



I have known people to lose battles with brain tumours, cancer, to become disabled, and to become very ill.




In contrast, I know/knew someone to do something is not a thing that people say. Apparently you can't say "I knew some people to drink coffee around midnight.*" Why is that? What is special about the structure I have known someone to do something that validates it as grammatical?






phrases expressions structure







share|improve this question













The structure I have known someone to do something is apparently considered grammatical and idiomatic. Examples from Google:




I have known people to take shops, put in a few articles and, without opening the doors, to sell the premises for as much as £1,000. (New Zealand Parliament)



I have known people to temporarily lose interest in sex and believe the problem was in their marriage but later realize that it was grief.



I have known people to lose battles with brain tumours, cancer, to become disabled, and to become very ill.




In contrast, I know/knew someone to do something is not a thing that people say. Apparently you can't say "I knew some people to drink coffee around midnight.*" Why is that? What is special about the structure I have known someone to do something that validates it as grammatical?






phrases expressions structure




phrases expressions structure






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked 6 hours ago









L. Moneta

272113




272113








  • 4




    Good question. I believe that this is merely customary, but you almost certainly should get a better answer than that. Welcome to EL&U.
    – Robusto
    6 hours ago






  • 1




    I know someone to fix her car is just a less common version of I know someone who can fix her car. But I have known someone to fix her car is a completely different utterance. Often, the speaker wouldn't actually be acquainted with anyone who had previously fixed her car - it just means I am aware that [at least once] in the past someone fixed her car.
    – FumbleFingers
    6 hours ago






  • 1




    I know him to buy paintings at auctions; I know her to spend hours reading gravestones in churchyards; I know them to be fighting the government on several issues. Less familiar to the non-native speaker, but nothing special about the structure — it can work in the present tense if it is transformed properly, as in my examples.
    – David
    4 hours ago








  • 1




    I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because it is based on a false premise, as explained in my comment.
    – David
    4 hours ago






  • 1




    @David Hmm, "if it is transformed properly". You seem to be saying no one in the Internet equipped world knows how to transform "I know people to" properly. Google hits: 0. google.com/…
    – L. Moneta
    4 hours ago
















  • 4




    Good question. I believe that this is merely customary, but you almost certainly should get a better answer than that. Welcome to EL&U.
    – Robusto
    6 hours ago






  • 1




    I know someone to fix her car is just a less common version of I know someone who can fix her car. But I have known someone to fix her car is a completely different utterance. Often, the speaker wouldn't actually be acquainted with anyone who had previously fixed her car - it just means I am aware that [at least once] in the past someone fixed her car.
    – FumbleFingers
    6 hours ago






  • 1




    I know him to buy paintings at auctions; I know her to spend hours reading gravestones in churchyards; I know them to be fighting the government on several issues. Less familiar to the non-native speaker, but nothing special about the structure — it can work in the present tense if it is transformed properly, as in my examples.
    – David
    4 hours ago








  • 1




    I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because it is based on a false premise, as explained in my comment.
    – David
    4 hours ago






  • 1




    @David Hmm, "if it is transformed properly". You seem to be saying no one in the Internet equipped world knows how to transform "I know people to" properly. Google hits: 0. google.com/…
    – L. Moneta
    4 hours ago










4




4




Good question. I believe that this is merely customary, but you almost certainly should get a better answer than that. Welcome to EL&U.
– Robusto
6 hours ago




Good question. I believe that this is merely customary, but you almost certainly should get a better answer than that. Welcome to EL&U.
– Robusto
6 hours ago




1




1




I know someone to fix her car is just a less common version of I know someone who can fix her car. But I have known someone to fix her car is a completely different utterance. Often, the speaker wouldn't actually be acquainted with anyone who had previously fixed her car - it just means I am aware that [at least once] in the past someone fixed her car.
– FumbleFingers
6 hours ago




I know someone to fix her car is just a less common version of I know someone who can fix her car. But I have known someone to fix her car is a completely different utterance. Often, the speaker wouldn't actually be acquainted with anyone who had previously fixed her car - it just means I am aware that [at least once] in the past someone fixed her car.
– FumbleFingers
6 hours ago




1




1




I know him to buy paintings at auctions; I know her to spend hours reading gravestones in churchyards; I know them to be fighting the government on several issues. Less familiar to the non-native speaker, but nothing special about the structure — it can work in the present tense if it is transformed properly, as in my examples.
– David
4 hours ago






I know him to buy paintings at auctions; I know her to spend hours reading gravestones in churchyards; I know them to be fighting the government on several issues. Less familiar to the non-native speaker, but nothing special about the structure — it can work in the present tense if it is transformed properly, as in my examples.
– David
4 hours ago






1




1




I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because it is based on a false premise, as explained in my comment.
– David
4 hours ago




I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because it is based on a false premise, as explained in my comment.
– David
4 hours ago




1




1




@David Hmm, "if it is transformed properly". You seem to be saying no one in the Internet equipped world knows how to transform "I know people to" properly. Google hits: 0. google.com/…
– L. Moneta
4 hours ago






@David Hmm, "if it is transformed properly". You seem to be saying no one in the Internet equipped world knows how to transform "I know people to" properly. Google hits: 0. google.com/…
– L. Moneta
4 hours ago












2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















2














There is a difference in what you want to imply. Have known communicates that you are aware of at least some cases in which your statement has been true in the past. (It may or may not be true currently). Know means you think it's true in general.



Compare:




I've known him to get up early in the morning (= He's capable of it. He might do it again, even if he has possibly stopped.)




to




I know him to get up early in the morning (= He ususally does it.)




The second is in the same vein as "I know him to be a nice guy."






share|improve this answer























  • While I agree with the distinction you make with tenses, that is not the crux of my question. The fact that I know him to get up early returns exactly naught troubles me.
    – L. Moneta
    3 hours ago












  • That's way too narrow. Here. Contrast sentences like "I know him to be rich/evil/sick" with "I've known him to be rich/evil/sick."
    – Tushar Raj
    3 hours ago












  • "Know someone/something to be" is a different story. As evidenced by the title, there is no question there to begin with.
    – L. Moneta
    3 hours ago












  • "What is special about the structure I have known someone to do something that validates it as grammatical?" Nothing. Both constructs are grammatical and have distinct meanings, as I have demonstrated. Evidently one of them is significantly less popular, but usage patterns have nothing to do with grammatical validity. If you don't like be rich, you can try similar experiments with things like get angry when... or have patience and so on. Your OP was about grammar and meaning, so I answered keeping that in mind. I can't vouch for usage.
    – Tushar Raj
    3 hours ago












  • @L.Moneta I think the problem is that Tushar Raj has answered your question, but you really want an answer to your title. I would suggest an edit if what you actually want to know is why one is more commonly used.
    – A C
    1 hour ago



















0














To answer why is a context about time.



If I say, “I have known someone to do”, then I’m reflecting on my experience, memory and past. The details of such a context tend to be abstract more often than not.



For example: “I have known John Doe to go fishing on Sundays.” This is reference of memory over a long period of time. John typically goes fishing on Sundays that I can remember over the past 5 years. The sentence merely shortens time as an abstraction of unknown amount of time.



On the other hand, “I know someone who may fish with you” is more in the present moment or immediate future.



For example: You are going fishing this afternoon or tomorrow? Well I know someone who may join you.






share|improve this answer





















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    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes








    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    2














    There is a difference in what you want to imply. Have known communicates that you are aware of at least some cases in which your statement has been true in the past. (It may or may not be true currently). Know means you think it's true in general.



    Compare:




    I've known him to get up early in the morning (= He's capable of it. He might do it again, even if he has possibly stopped.)




    to




    I know him to get up early in the morning (= He ususally does it.)




    The second is in the same vein as "I know him to be a nice guy."






    share|improve this answer























    • While I agree with the distinction you make with tenses, that is not the crux of my question. The fact that I know him to get up early returns exactly naught troubles me.
      – L. Moneta
      3 hours ago












    • That's way too narrow. Here. Contrast sentences like "I know him to be rich/evil/sick" with "I've known him to be rich/evil/sick."
      – Tushar Raj
      3 hours ago












    • "Know someone/something to be" is a different story. As evidenced by the title, there is no question there to begin with.
      – L. Moneta
      3 hours ago












    • "What is special about the structure I have known someone to do something that validates it as grammatical?" Nothing. Both constructs are grammatical and have distinct meanings, as I have demonstrated. Evidently one of them is significantly less popular, but usage patterns have nothing to do with grammatical validity. If you don't like be rich, you can try similar experiments with things like get angry when... or have patience and so on. Your OP was about grammar and meaning, so I answered keeping that in mind. I can't vouch for usage.
      – Tushar Raj
      3 hours ago












    • @L.Moneta I think the problem is that Tushar Raj has answered your question, but you really want an answer to your title. I would suggest an edit if what you actually want to know is why one is more commonly used.
      – A C
      1 hour ago
















    2














    There is a difference in what you want to imply. Have known communicates that you are aware of at least some cases in which your statement has been true in the past. (It may or may not be true currently). Know means you think it's true in general.



    Compare:




    I've known him to get up early in the morning (= He's capable of it. He might do it again, even if he has possibly stopped.)




    to




    I know him to get up early in the morning (= He ususally does it.)




    The second is in the same vein as "I know him to be a nice guy."






    share|improve this answer























    • While I agree with the distinction you make with tenses, that is not the crux of my question. The fact that I know him to get up early returns exactly naught troubles me.
      – L. Moneta
      3 hours ago












    • That's way too narrow. Here. Contrast sentences like "I know him to be rich/evil/sick" with "I've known him to be rich/evil/sick."
      – Tushar Raj
      3 hours ago












    • "Know someone/something to be" is a different story. As evidenced by the title, there is no question there to begin with.
      – L. Moneta
      3 hours ago












    • "What is special about the structure I have known someone to do something that validates it as grammatical?" Nothing. Both constructs are grammatical and have distinct meanings, as I have demonstrated. Evidently one of them is significantly less popular, but usage patterns have nothing to do with grammatical validity. If you don't like be rich, you can try similar experiments with things like get angry when... or have patience and so on. Your OP was about grammar and meaning, so I answered keeping that in mind. I can't vouch for usage.
      – Tushar Raj
      3 hours ago












    • @L.Moneta I think the problem is that Tushar Raj has answered your question, but you really want an answer to your title. I would suggest an edit if what you actually want to know is why one is more commonly used.
      – A C
      1 hour ago














    2












    2








    2






    There is a difference in what you want to imply. Have known communicates that you are aware of at least some cases in which your statement has been true in the past. (It may or may not be true currently). Know means you think it's true in general.



    Compare:




    I've known him to get up early in the morning (= He's capable of it. He might do it again, even if he has possibly stopped.)




    to




    I know him to get up early in the morning (= He ususally does it.)




    The second is in the same vein as "I know him to be a nice guy."






    share|improve this answer














    There is a difference in what you want to imply. Have known communicates that you are aware of at least some cases in which your statement has been true in the past. (It may or may not be true currently). Know means you think it's true in general.



    Compare:




    I've known him to get up early in the morning (= He's capable of it. He might do it again, even if he has possibly stopped.)




    to




    I know him to get up early in the morning (= He ususally does it.)




    The second is in the same vein as "I know him to be a nice guy."







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited 3 hours ago

























    answered 3 hours ago









    Tushar Raj

    18.5k864112




    18.5k864112












    • While I agree with the distinction you make with tenses, that is not the crux of my question. The fact that I know him to get up early returns exactly naught troubles me.
      – L. Moneta
      3 hours ago












    • That's way too narrow. Here. Contrast sentences like "I know him to be rich/evil/sick" with "I've known him to be rich/evil/sick."
      – Tushar Raj
      3 hours ago












    • "Know someone/something to be" is a different story. As evidenced by the title, there is no question there to begin with.
      – L. Moneta
      3 hours ago












    • "What is special about the structure I have known someone to do something that validates it as grammatical?" Nothing. Both constructs are grammatical and have distinct meanings, as I have demonstrated. Evidently one of them is significantly less popular, but usage patterns have nothing to do with grammatical validity. If you don't like be rich, you can try similar experiments with things like get angry when... or have patience and so on. Your OP was about grammar and meaning, so I answered keeping that in mind. I can't vouch for usage.
      – Tushar Raj
      3 hours ago












    • @L.Moneta I think the problem is that Tushar Raj has answered your question, but you really want an answer to your title. I would suggest an edit if what you actually want to know is why one is more commonly used.
      – A C
      1 hour ago


















    • While I agree with the distinction you make with tenses, that is not the crux of my question. The fact that I know him to get up early returns exactly naught troubles me.
      – L. Moneta
      3 hours ago












    • That's way too narrow. Here. Contrast sentences like "I know him to be rich/evil/sick" with "I've known him to be rich/evil/sick."
      – Tushar Raj
      3 hours ago












    • "Know someone/something to be" is a different story. As evidenced by the title, there is no question there to begin with.
      – L. Moneta
      3 hours ago












    • "What is special about the structure I have known someone to do something that validates it as grammatical?" Nothing. Both constructs are grammatical and have distinct meanings, as I have demonstrated. Evidently one of them is significantly less popular, but usage patterns have nothing to do with grammatical validity. If you don't like be rich, you can try similar experiments with things like get angry when... or have patience and so on. Your OP was about grammar and meaning, so I answered keeping that in mind. I can't vouch for usage.
      – Tushar Raj
      3 hours ago












    • @L.Moneta I think the problem is that Tushar Raj has answered your question, but you really want an answer to your title. I would suggest an edit if what you actually want to know is why one is more commonly used.
      – A C
      1 hour ago
















    While I agree with the distinction you make with tenses, that is not the crux of my question. The fact that I know him to get up early returns exactly naught troubles me.
    – L. Moneta
    3 hours ago






    While I agree with the distinction you make with tenses, that is not the crux of my question. The fact that I know him to get up early returns exactly naught troubles me.
    – L. Moneta
    3 hours ago














    That's way too narrow. Here. Contrast sentences like "I know him to be rich/evil/sick" with "I've known him to be rich/evil/sick."
    – Tushar Raj
    3 hours ago






    That's way too narrow. Here. Contrast sentences like "I know him to be rich/evil/sick" with "I've known him to be rich/evil/sick."
    – Tushar Raj
    3 hours ago














    "Know someone/something to be" is a different story. As evidenced by the title, there is no question there to begin with.
    – L. Moneta
    3 hours ago






    "Know someone/something to be" is a different story. As evidenced by the title, there is no question there to begin with.
    – L. Moneta
    3 hours ago














    "What is special about the structure I have known someone to do something that validates it as grammatical?" Nothing. Both constructs are grammatical and have distinct meanings, as I have demonstrated. Evidently one of them is significantly less popular, but usage patterns have nothing to do with grammatical validity. If you don't like be rich, you can try similar experiments with things like get angry when... or have patience and so on. Your OP was about grammar and meaning, so I answered keeping that in mind. I can't vouch for usage.
    – Tushar Raj
    3 hours ago






    "What is special about the structure I have known someone to do something that validates it as grammatical?" Nothing. Both constructs are grammatical and have distinct meanings, as I have demonstrated. Evidently one of them is significantly less popular, but usage patterns have nothing to do with grammatical validity. If you don't like be rich, you can try similar experiments with things like get angry when... or have patience and so on. Your OP was about grammar and meaning, so I answered keeping that in mind. I can't vouch for usage.
    – Tushar Raj
    3 hours ago














    @L.Moneta I think the problem is that Tushar Raj has answered your question, but you really want an answer to your title. I would suggest an edit if what you actually want to know is why one is more commonly used.
    – A C
    1 hour ago




    @L.Moneta I think the problem is that Tushar Raj has answered your question, but you really want an answer to your title. I would suggest an edit if what you actually want to know is why one is more commonly used.
    – A C
    1 hour ago













    0














    To answer why is a context about time.



    If I say, “I have known someone to do”, then I’m reflecting on my experience, memory and past. The details of such a context tend to be abstract more often than not.



    For example: “I have known John Doe to go fishing on Sundays.” This is reference of memory over a long period of time. John typically goes fishing on Sundays that I can remember over the past 5 years. The sentence merely shortens time as an abstraction of unknown amount of time.



    On the other hand, “I know someone who may fish with you” is more in the present moment or immediate future.



    For example: You are going fishing this afternoon or tomorrow? Well I know someone who may join you.






    share|improve this answer


























      0














      To answer why is a context about time.



      If I say, “I have known someone to do”, then I’m reflecting on my experience, memory and past. The details of such a context tend to be abstract more often than not.



      For example: “I have known John Doe to go fishing on Sundays.” This is reference of memory over a long period of time. John typically goes fishing on Sundays that I can remember over the past 5 years. The sentence merely shortens time as an abstraction of unknown amount of time.



      On the other hand, “I know someone who may fish with you” is more in the present moment or immediate future.



      For example: You are going fishing this afternoon or tomorrow? Well I know someone who may join you.






      share|improve this answer
























        0












        0








        0






        To answer why is a context about time.



        If I say, “I have known someone to do”, then I’m reflecting on my experience, memory and past. The details of such a context tend to be abstract more often than not.



        For example: “I have known John Doe to go fishing on Sundays.” This is reference of memory over a long period of time. John typically goes fishing on Sundays that I can remember over the past 5 years. The sentence merely shortens time as an abstraction of unknown amount of time.



        On the other hand, “I know someone who may fish with you” is more in the present moment or immediate future.



        For example: You are going fishing this afternoon or tomorrow? Well I know someone who may join you.






        share|improve this answer












        To answer why is a context about time.



        If I say, “I have known someone to do”, then I’m reflecting on my experience, memory and past. The details of such a context tend to be abstract more often than not.



        For example: “I have known John Doe to go fishing on Sundays.” This is reference of memory over a long period of time. John typically goes fishing on Sundays that I can remember over the past 5 years. The sentence merely shortens time as an abstraction of unknown amount of time.



        On the other hand, “I know someone who may fish with you” is more in the present moment or immediate future.



        For example: You are going fishing this afternoon or tomorrow? Well I know someone who may join you.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered 4 hours ago









        James Axsom

        422




        422






























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