Why do falling prices hurt debtors?












2












$begingroup$


The argument goes that if there is deflation, the real interest rate rises, and so the burden on debtors increase (Paul Krugman says so in https://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/02/why-is-deflation-bad/).



I understand why the real rate rises, since $r = i - pi$, but why does that mean there's more of a "burden" on debtors?



If I take out a loan for 1000 dollars today, and have to pay it back a year from now, why would it affect me negatively if suddenly everything became cheaper? Sure, the money I'd be paying back (1000 dollars + interest) is "worth more", in the sense of being able to buy more stuff, but ... so what? Those 1000 dollars + interest had to be paid back no matter what. Who cares if its "worth more"? It's not my money anyways, and is due to be paid back? How exactly has my "burden" increased?










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    2












    $begingroup$


    The argument goes that if there is deflation, the real interest rate rises, and so the burden on debtors increase (Paul Krugman says so in https://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/02/why-is-deflation-bad/).



    I understand why the real rate rises, since $r = i - pi$, but why does that mean there's more of a "burden" on debtors?



    If I take out a loan for 1000 dollars today, and have to pay it back a year from now, why would it affect me negatively if suddenly everything became cheaper? Sure, the money I'd be paying back (1000 dollars + interest) is "worth more", in the sense of being able to buy more stuff, but ... so what? Those 1000 dollars + interest had to be paid back no matter what. Who cares if its "worth more"? It's not my money anyways, and is due to be paid back? How exactly has my "burden" increased?










    share|improve this question









    New contributor




    Kastrup is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.







    $endgroup$















      2












      2








      2





      $begingroup$


      The argument goes that if there is deflation, the real interest rate rises, and so the burden on debtors increase (Paul Krugman says so in https://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/02/why-is-deflation-bad/).



      I understand why the real rate rises, since $r = i - pi$, but why does that mean there's more of a "burden" on debtors?



      If I take out a loan for 1000 dollars today, and have to pay it back a year from now, why would it affect me negatively if suddenly everything became cheaper? Sure, the money I'd be paying back (1000 dollars + interest) is "worth more", in the sense of being able to buy more stuff, but ... so what? Those 1000 dollars + interest had to be paid back no matter what. Who cares if its "worth more"? It's not my money anyways, and is due to be paid back? How exactly has my "burden" increased?










      share|improve this question









      New contributor




      Kastrup is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.







      $endgroup$




      The argument goes that if there is deflation, the real interest rate rises, and so the burden on debtors increase (Paul Krugman says so in https://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/02/why-is-deflation-bad/).



      I understand why the real rate rises, since $r = i - pi$, but why does that mean there's more of a "burden" on debtors?



      If I take out a loan for 1000 dollars today, and have to pay it back a year from now, why would it affect me negatively if suddenly everything became cheaper? Sure, the money I'd be paying back (1000 dollars + interest) is "worth more", in the sense of being able to buy more stuff, but ... so what? Those 1000 dollars + interest had to be paid back no matter what. Who cares if its "worth more"? It's not my money anyways, and is due to be paid back? How exactly has my "burden" increased?







      deflation






      share|improve this question









      New contributor




      Kastrup is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.











      share|improve this question









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      Kastrup is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited 7 hours ago









      Brian Romanchuk

      3,8291316




      3,8291316






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      asked 9 hours ago









      KastrupKastrup

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      111




      New contributor




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      New contributor





      Kastrup is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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      Check out our Code of Conduct.






















          3 Answers
          3






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          4












          $begingroup$

          If the borrower is a firm, lower prices means your output is selling for less, so you need to sell more units in order to repay the debt (assuming a constant profit margin).



          For an individual, the buried assumption is that wages are also falling in the deflation. In which case, the debt is increasing relative to your wages. However, if your wages have not fallen, falling prices will make it easier for you to repay the debt (you can consume the same amount, and have more money left over to repay debt).



          It makes more sense at the macro level, as deflation is normally associated with lower growth and a higher unemployment rate.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$













          • $begingroup$
            The same article by Krugman mentions that wages don't fall due to downwards rigidity, so that can't be the buried assumption (at least not his).
            $endgroup$
            – Kastrup
            5 hours ago












          • $begingroup$
            @Kastrup Krugman is not universally acclaimed for his consistent reasoning.
            $endgroup$
            – chrylis
            5 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            Krugman is not making both these arguments, so not sure why he should be accused of being inconsistent. He's only inconsistent if he agrees with the argument by Brian. And either way, I still don't understand the argument. Even if wages do fall, since prices are falling as well, my real wage may have increased (which would be especially true if my wage shows greater rigidity than the prices, as one might expect), so how could that possibly increase my debt burden?
            $endgroup$
            – Kastrup
            4 hours ago












          • $begingroup$
            The burden increase is the rise in the ratio of debt to income. Also, I don’t think Krugman’s argument is what you think. The rigidity means that there is a need for mass unemployment to get a fall in wages, as opposed to less effort needed for inflation. That is, wages do fall, and you need a lot of unemployment to get there. He’s not particularly clear on that front.
            $endgroup$
            – Brian Romanchuk
            3 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            @Kastrup: Krugman does say that there is downward nominal wage ridigity. This means that it's difficult for nominal wages to fall, but not that it's impossible. Here is his exact quote: in a deflationary economy, wages as well as prices often have to fall – and it’s a fact of life that it’s very hard to cut nominal wages — there’s downward nominal wage rigidity. What this means is that in general economies don’t manage to have falling wages unless they also have mass unemployment, so that workers are desperate enough to accept those wage declines.
            $endgroup$
            – Kenny LJ
            51 mins ago



















          1












          $begingroup$

          On 1st Jan 2020, D borrows $1000 from C for one year. (So, D must repay C $1000 on 1st Jan 2021.)



          Suppose that apples are the only good that is produced and consumed, and that on 1st Jan 2020, the price of each apple is $1. Then D has borrowed the equivalent of 1000 apples from C.



          Suppose there is 50% deflation over the course of 2020, so that on 1st Jan 2021, the price of each apple is $0.50. Then D, who must still repay $1000, must repay the equivalent of $1000 ÷ $0.50 = 2000 apples. The cost of D's debt has gone up.





          (Conversely, suppose there is 100% inflation over the course of 2020 so that on 1st Jan 2021, the price of each apple is $2. Then D, who must still repay $1000, must repay the equivalent of $1000 ÷ $2 = 500 apples. The cost of D's debt has gone down.)






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$





















            0












            $begingroup$

            In economics, the "cost" of A is ultimately the value of what you could have had if you hadn't gotten A. If you take out a loan of $1000 in 2018 and owe $1100 in 2019, then the cost of the loan is whatever $1100 buys in 2019. If it buys more in 2019, then the cost has gone up.






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$














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              3 Answers
              3






              active

              oldest

              votes








              3 Answers
              3






              active

              oldest

              votes









              active

              oldest

              votes






              active

              oldest

              votes









              4












              $begingroup$

              If the borrower is a firm, lower prices means your output is selling for less, so you need to sell more units in order to repay the debt (assuming a constant profit margin).



              For an individual, the buried assumption is that wages are also falling in the deflation. In which case, the debt is increasing relative to your wages. However, if your wages have not fallen, falling prices will make it easier for you to repay the debt (you can consume the same amount, and have more money left over to repay debt).



              It makes more sense at the macro level, as deflation is normally associated with lower growth and a higher unemployment rate.






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$













              • $begingroup$
                The same article by Krugman mentions that wages don't fall due to downwards rigidity, so that can't be the buried assumption (at least not his).
                $endgroup$
                – Kastrup
                5 hours ago












              • $begingroup$
                @Kastrup Krugman is not universally acclaimed for his consistent reasoning.
                $endgroup$
                – chrylis
                5 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                Krugman is not making both these arguments, so not sure why he should be accused of being inconsistent. He's only inconsistent if he agrees with the argument by Brian. And either way, I still don't understand the argument. Even if wages do fall, since prices are falling as well, my real wage may have increased (which would be especially true if my wage shows greater rigidity than the prices, as one might expect), so how could that possibly increase my debt burden?
                $endgroup$
                – Kastrup
                4 hours ago












              • $begingroup$
                The burden increase is the rise in the ratio of debt to income. Also, I don’t think Krugman’s argument is what you think. The rigidity means that there is a need for mass unemployment to get a fall in wages, as opposed to less effort needed for inflation. That is, wages do fall, and you need a lot of unemployment to get there. He’s not particularly clear on that front.
                $endgroup$
                – Brian Romanchuk
                3 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                @Kastrup: Krugman does say that there is downward nominal wage ridigity. This means that it's difficult for nominal wages to fall, but not that it's impossible. Here is his exact quote: in a deflationary economy, wages as well as prices often have to fall – and it’s a fact of life that it’s very hard to cut nominal wages — there’s downward nominal wage rigidity. What this means is that in general economies don’t manage to have falling wages unless they also have mass unemployment, so that workers are desperate enough to accept those wage declines.
                $endgroup$
                – Kenny LJ
                51 mins ago
















              4












              $begingroup$

              If the borrower is a firm, lower prices means your output is selling for less, so you need to sell more units in order to repay the debt (assuming a constant profit margin).



              For an individual, the buried assumption is that wages are also falling in the deflation. In which case, the debt is increasing relative to your wages. However, if your wages have not fallen, falling prices will make it easier for you to repay the debt (you can consume the same amount, and have more money left over to repay debt).



              It makes more sense at the macro level, as deflation is normally associated with lower growth and a higher unemployment rate.






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$













              • $begingroup$
                The same article by Krugman mentions that wages don't fall due to downwards rigidity, so that can't be the buried assumption (at least not his).
                $endgroup$
                – Kastrup
                5 hours ago












              • $begingroup$
                @Kastrup Krugman is not universally acclaimed for his consistent reasoning.
                $endgroup$
                – chrylis
                5 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                Krugman is not making both these arguments, so not sure why he should be accused of being inconsistent. He's only inconsistent if he agrees with the argument by Brian. And either way, I still don't understand the argument. Even if wages do fall, since prices are falling as well, my real wage may have increased (which would be especially true if my wage shows greater rigidity than the prices, as one might expect), so how could that possibly increase my debt burden?
                $endgroup$
                – Kastrup
                4 hours ago












              • $begingroup$
                The burden increase is the rise in the ratio of debt to income. Also, I don’t think Krugman’s argument is what you think. The rigidity means that there is a need for mass unemployment to get a fall in wages, as opposed to less effort needed for inflation. That is, wages do fall, and you need a lot of unemployment to get there. He’s not particularly clear on that front.
                $endgroup$
                – Brian Romanchuk
                3 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                @Kastrup: Krugman does say that there is downward nominal wage ridigity. This means that it's difficult for nominal wages to fall, but not that it's impossible. Here is his exact quote: in a deflationary economy, wages as well as prices often have to fall – and it’s a fact of life that it’s very hard to cut nominal wages — there’s downward nominal wage rigidity. What this means is that in general economies don’t manage to have falling wages unless they also have mass unemployment, so that workers are desperate enough to accept those wage declines.
                $endgroup$
                – Kenny LJ
                51 mins ago














              4












              4








              4





              $begingroup$

              If the borrower is a firm, lower prices means your output is selling for less, so you need to sell more units in order to repay the debt (assuming a constant profit margin).



              For an individual, the buried assumption is that wages are also falling in the deflation. In which case, the debt is increasing relative to your wages. However, if your wages have not fallen, falling prices will make it easier for you to repay the debt (you can consume the same amount, and have more money left over to repay debt).



              It makes more sense at the macro level, as deflation is normally associated with lower growth and a higher unemployment rate.






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$



              If the borrower is a firm, lower prices means your output is selling for less, so you need to sell more units in order to repay the debt (assuming a constant profit margin).



              For an individual, the buried assumption is that wages are also falling in the deflation. In which case, the debt is increasing relative to your wages. However, if your wages have not fallen, falling prices will make it easier for you to repay the debt (you can consume the same amount, and have more money left over to repay debt).



              It makes more sense at the macro level, as deflation is normally associated with lower growth and a higher unemployment rate.







              share|improve this answer












              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer










              answered 7 hours ago









              Brian RomanchukBrian Romanchuk

              3,8291316




              3,8291316












              • $begingroup$
                The same article by Krugman mentions that wages don't fall due to downwards rigidity, so that can't be the buried assumption (at least not his).
                $endgroup$
                – Kastrup
                5 hours ago












              • $begingroup$
                @Kastrup Krugman is not universally acclaimed for his consistent reasoning.
                $endgroup$
                – chrylis
                5 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                Krugman is not making both these arguments, so not sure why he should be accused of being inconsistent. He's only inconsistent if he agrees with the argument by Brian. And either way, I still don't understand the argument. Even if wages do fall, since prices are falling as well, my real wage may have increased (which would be especially true if my wage shows greater rigidity than the prices, as one might expect), so how could that possibly increase my debt burden?
                $endgroup$
                – Kastrup
                4 hours ago












              • $begingroup$
                The burden increase is the rise in the ratio of debt to income. Also, I don’t think Krugman’s argument is what you think. The rigidity means that there is a need for mass unemployment to get a fall in wages, as opposed to less effort needed for inflation. That is, wages do fall, and you need a lot of unemployment to get there. He’s not particularly clear on that front.
                $endgroup$
                – Brian Romanchuk
                3 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                @Kastrup: Krugman does say that there is downward nominal wage ridigity. This means that it's difficult for nominal wages to fall, but not that it's impossible. Here is his exact quote: in a deflationary economy, wages as well as prices often have to fall – and it’s a fact of life that it’s very hard to cut nominal wages — there’s downward nominal wage rigidity. What this means is that in general economies don’t manage to have falling wages unless they also have mass unemployment, so that workers are desperate enough to accept those wage declines.
                $endgroup$
                – Kenny LJ
                51 mins ago


















              • $begingroup$
                The same article by Krugman mentions that wages don't fall due to downwards rigidity, so that can't be the buried assumption (at least not his).
                $endgroup$
                – Kastrup
                5 hours ago












              • $begingroup$
                @Kastrup Krugman is not universally acclaimed for his consistent reasoning.
                $endgroup$
                – chrylis
                5 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                Krugman is not making both these arguments, so not sure why he should be accused of being inconsistent. He's only inconsistent if he agrees with the argument by Brian. And either way, I still don't understand the argument. Even if wages do fall, since prices are falling as well, my real wage may have increased (which would be especially true if my wage shows greater rigidity than the prices, as one might expect), so how could that possibly increase my debt burden?
                $endgroup$
                – Kastrup
                4 hours ago












              • $begingroup$
                The burden increase is the rise in the ratio of debt to income. Also, I don’t think Krugman’s argument is what you think. The rigidity means that there is a need for mass unemployment to get a fall in wages, as opposed to less effort needed for inflation. That is, wages do fall, and you need a lot of unemployment to get there. He’s not particularly clear on that front.
                $endgroup$
                – Brian Romanchuk
                3 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                @Kastrup: Krugman does say that there is downward nominal wage ridigity. This means that it's difficult for nominal wages to fall, but not that it's impossible. Here is his exact quote: in a deflationary economy, wages as well as prices often have to fall – and it’s a fact of life that it’s very hard to cut nominal wages — there’s downward nominal wage rigidity. What this means is that in general economies don’t manage to have falling wages unless they also have mass unemployment, so that workers are desperate enough to accept those wage declines.
                $endgroup$
                – Kenny LJ
                51 mins ago
















              $begingroup$
              The same article by Krugman mentions that wages don't fall due to downwards rigidity, so that can't be the buried assumption (at least not his).
              $endgroup$
              – Kastrup
              5 hours ago






              $begingroup$
              The same article by Krugman mentions that wages don't fall due to downwards rigidity, so that can't be the buried assumption (at least not his).
              $endgroup$
              – Kastrup
              5 hours ago














              $begingroup$
              @Kastrup Krugman is not universally acclaimed for his consistent reasoning.
              $endgroup$
              – chrylis
              5 hours ago




              $begingroup$
              @Kastrup Krugman is not universally acclaimed for his consistent reasoning.
              $endgroup$
              – chrylis
              5 hours ago












              $begingroup$
              Krugman is not making both these arguments, so not sure why he should be accused of being inconsistent. He's only inconsistent if he agrees with the argument by Brian. And either way, I still don't understand the argument. Even if wages do fall, since prices are falling as well, my real wage may have increased (which would be especially true if my wage shows greater rigidity than the prices, as one might expect), so how could that possibly increase my debt burden?
              $endgroup$
              – Kastrup
              4 hours ago






              $begingroup$
              Krugman is not making both these arguments, so not sure why he should be accused of being inconsistent. He's only inconsistent if he agrees with the argument by Brian. And either way, I still don't understand the argument. Even if wages do fall, since prices are falling as well, my real wage may have increased (which would be especially true if my wage shows greater rigidity than the prices, as one might expect), so how could that possibly increase my debt burden?
              $endgroup$
              – Kastrup
              4 hours ago














              $begingroup$
              The burden increase is the rise in the ratio of debt to income. Also, I don’t think Krugman’s argument is what you think. The rigidity means that there is a need for mass unemployment to get a fall in wages, as opposed to less effort needed for inflation. That is, wages do fall, and you need a lot of unemployment to get there. He’s not particularly clear on that front.
              $endgroup$
              – Brian Romanchuk
              3 hours ago




              $begingroup$
              The burden increase is the rise in the ratio of debt to income. Also, I don’t think Krugman’s argument is what you think. The rigidity means that there is a need for mass unemployment to get a fall in wages, as opposed to less effort needed for inflation. That is, wages do fall, and you need a lot of unemployment to get there. He’s not particularly clear on that front.
              $endgroup$
              – Brian Romanchuk
              3 hours ago












              $begingroup$
              @Kastrup: Krugman does say that there is downward nominal wage ridigity. This means that it's difficult for nominal wages to fall, but not that it's impossible. Here is his exact quote: in a deflationary economy, wages as well as prices often have to fall – and it’s a fact of life that it’s very hard to cut nominal wages — there’s downward nominal wage rigidity. What this means is that in general economies don’t manage to have falling wages unless they also have mass unemployment, so that workers are desperate enough to accept those wage declines.
              $endgroup$
              – Kenny LJ
              51 mins ago




              $begingroup$
              @Kastrup: Krugman does say that there is downward nominal wage ridigity. This means that it's difficult for nominal wages to fall, but not that it's impossible. Here is his exact quote: in a deflationary economy, wages as well as prices often have to fall – and it’s a fact of life that it’s very hard to cut nominal wages — there’s downward nominal wage rigidity. What this means is that in general economies don’t manage to have falling wages unless they also have mass unemployment, so that workers are desperate enough to accept those wage declines.
              $endgroup$
              – Kenny LJ
              51 mins ago











              1












              $begingroup$

              On 1st Jan 2020, D borrows $1000 from C for one year. (So, D must repay C $1000 on 1st Jan 2021.)



              Suppose that apples are the only good that is produced and consumed, and that on 1st Jan 2020, the price of each apple is $1. Then D has borrowed the equivalent of 1000 apples from C.



              Suppose there is 50% deflation over the course of 2020, so that on 1st Jan 2021, the price of each apple is $0.50. Then D, who must still repay $1000, must repay the equivalent of $1000 ÷ $0.50 = 2000 apples. The cost of D's debt has gone up.





              (Conversely, suppose there is 100% inflation over the course of 2020 so that on 1st Jan 2021, the price of each apple is $2. Then D, who must still repay $1000, must repay the equivalent of $1000 ÷ $2 = 500 apples. The cost of D's debt has gone down.)






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$


















                1












                $begingroup$

                On 1st Jan 2020, D borrows $1000 from C for one year. (So, D must repay C $1000 on 1st Jan 2021.)



                Suppose that apples are the only good that is produced and consumed, and that on 1st Jan 2020, the price of each apple is $1. Then D has borrowed the equivalent of 1000 apples from C.



                Suppose there is 50% deflation over the course of 2020, so that on 1st Jan 2021, the price of each apple is $0.50. Then D, who must still repay $1000, must repay the equivalent of $1000 ÷ $0.50 = 2000 apples. The cost of D's debt has gone up.





                (Conversely, suppose there is 100% inflation over the course of 2020 so that on 1st Jan 2021, the price of each apple is $2. Then D, who must still repay $1000, must repay the equivalent of $1000 ÷ $2 = 500 apples. The cost of D's debt has gone down.)






                share|improve this answer









                $endgroup$
















                  1












                  1








                  1





                  $begingroup$

                  On 1st Jan 2020, D borrows $1000 from C for one year. (So, D must repay C $1000 on 1st Jan 2021.)



                  Suppose that apples are the only good that is produced and consumed, and that on 1st Jan 2020, the price of each apple is $1. Then D has borrowed the equivalent of 1000 apples from C.



                  Suppose there is 50% deflation over the course of 2020, so that on 1st Jan 2021, the price of each apple is $0.50. Then D, who must still repay $1000, must repay the equivalent of $1000 ÷ $0.50 = 2000 apples. The cost of D's debt has gone up.





                  (Conversely, suppose there is 100% inflation over the course of 2020 so that on 1st Jan 2021, the price of each apple is $2. Then D, who must still repay $1000, must repay the equivalent of $1000 ÷ $2 = 500 apples. The cost of D's debt has gone down.)






                  share|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$



                  On 1st Jan 2020, D borrows $1000 from C for one year. (So, D must repay C $1000 on 1st Jan 2021.)



                  Suppose that apples are the only good that is produced and consumed, and that on 1st Jan 2020, the price of each apple is $1. Then D has borrowed the equivalent of 1000 apples from C.



                  Suppose there is 50% deflation over the course of 2020, so that on 1st Jan 2021, the price of each apple is $0.50. Then D, who must still repay $1000, must repay the equivalent of $1000 ÷ $0.50 = 2000 apples. The cost of D's debt has gone up.





                  (Conversely, suppose there is 100% inflation over the course of 2020 so that on 1st Jan 2021, the price of each apple is $2. Then D, who must still repay $1000, must repay the equivalent of $1000 ÷ $2 = 500 apples. The cost of D's debt has gone down.)







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                  answered 21 mins ago









                  Kenny LJKenny LJ

                  6,18021946




                  6,18021946























                      0












                      $begingroup$

                      In economics, the "cost" of A is ultimately the value of what you could have had if you hadn't gotten A. If you take out a loan of $1000 in 2018 and owe $1100 in 2019, then the cost of the loan is whatever $1100 buys in 2019. If it buys more in 2019, then the cost has gone up.






                      share|improve this answer









                      $endgroup$


















                        0












                        $begingroup$

                        In economics, the "cost" of A is ultimately the value of what you could have had if you hadn't gotten A. If you take out a loan of $1000 in 2018 and owe $1100 in 2019, then the cost of the loan is whatever $1100 buys in 2019. If it buys more in 2019, then the cost has gone up.






                        share|improve this answer









                        $endgroup$
















                          0












                          0








                          0





                          $begingroup$

                          In economics, the "cost" of A is ultimately the value of what you could have had if you hadn't gotten A. If you take out a loan of $1000 in 2018 and owe $1100 in 2019, then the cost of the loan is whatever $1100 buys in 2019. If it buys more in 2019, then the cost has gone up.






                          share|improve this answer









                          $endgroup$



                          In economics, the "cost" of A is ultimately the value of what you could have had if you hadn't gotten A. If you take out a loan of $1000 in 2018 and owe $1100 in 2019, then the cost of the loan is whatever $1100 buys in 2019. If it buys more in 2019, then the cost has gone up.







                          share|improve this answer












                          share|improve this answer



                          share|improve this answer










                          answered 2 hours ago









                          AcccumulationAcccumulation

                          27215




                          27215






















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