Painting ritualistic murder in a “good-guy” light?











up vote
7
down vote

favorite
1












My good guys murder people. They slowly carve runes onto them to help defeat the bad guys. Sure they try to use "society's worst" people for the rituals, but realistically that doesn't always happen.



This is revealed to the main character and when the MC pushes, the good guys are unapologetic about all of it (similar to how the first paragraph is written). Of course MC shuns them and dissociates himself with them.



My goal is to make the MC come to view the good guys as Good Guys.



Eventually, MC realizes that the killing is necessary and comes to accept the good guys. But I can't get him to go from accepting what they're doing as necessary to then believing they're Good Guys. How can I make this leap? What am I missing?



Edit: In response to a comment, I'm not asking a "what to write" or what my plot should be or how the world should work. Rather, I'm trying to make a character pull a full 180 on their perspective of "right" and "wrong" or what is "good." I've begun the turn and am (what I feel to be) about halfway--my MC has accepted what's happening as necessary but still feels uneasy about it. I'm asking about how I can push a character over the edge and twist their beliefs while making it more believable than "He woke up the next day thinking they were good." What should I focus on to make this believable? At the moment, I feel like anything I do will be clearly fake.










share|improve this question




















  • 4




    Maybe there's no need to make the leap at all? A story that raises a question like "Do the ends justify the means?" and doesn't take sides about the answer, sounds more interesting to me than a story that comes down clearly on one side.
    – user37208
    8 hours ago










  • So, they torture-kill "society's worst" people for a higher cause? Can those "society's worst" be seen under (legal or perceived) death sentence? "We execute a murderer, and thwart a BIG EVIL. It's a win-win!"
    – Alexander
    7 hours ago












  • @user37208 I completely agree with the back half of your comment. A lot of what I'm doing is questioning if this is truly worth it (ends justifying the means), but later in the story I want to twist this MC to the point where they become an anti-hero. And I feel the first step is seeing the good guys as Good Guys.
    – scohe001
    6 hours ago










  • As I see it, this question asks for help with "what to write".
    – user57423
    4 hours ago










  • @user57423 I've edited to address your concern.
    – scohe001
    4 hours ago















up vote
7
down vote

favorite
1












My good guys murder people. They slowly carve runes onto them to help defeat the bad guys. Sure they try to use "society's worst" people for the rituals, but realistically that doesn't always happen.



This is revealed to the main character and when the MC pushes, the good guys are unapologetic about all of it (similar to how the first paragraph is written). Of course MC shuns them and dissociates himself with them.



My goal is to make the MC come to view the good guys as Good Guys.



Eventually, MC realizes that the killing is necessary and comes to accept the good guys. But I can't get him to go from accepting what they're doing as necessary to then believing they're Good Guys. How can I make this leap? What am I missing?



Edit: In response to a comment, I'm not asking a "what to write" or what my plot should be or how the world should work. Rather, I'm trying to make a character pull a full 180 on their perspective of "right" and "wrong" or what is "good." I've begun the turn and am (what I feel to be) about halfway--my MC has accepted what's happening as necessary but still feels uneasy about it. I'm asking about how I can push a character over the edge and twist their beliefs while making it more believable than "He woke up the next day thinking they were good." What should I focus on to make this believable? At the moment, I feel like anything I do will be clearly fake.










share|improve this question




















  • 4




    Maybe there's no need to make the leap at all? A story that raises a question like "Do the ends justify the means?" and doesn't take sides about the answer, sounds more interesting to me than a story that comes down clearly on one side.
    – user37208
    8 hours ago










  • So, they torture-kill "society's worst" people for a higher cause? Can those "society's worst" be seen under (legal or perceived) death sentence? "We execute a murderer, and thwart a BIG EVIL. It's a win-win!"
    – Alexander
    7 hours ago












  • @user37208 I completely agree with the back half of your comment. A lot of what I'm doing is questioning if this is truly worth it (ends justifying the means), but later in the story I want to twist this MC to the point where they become an anti-hero. And I feel the first step is seeing the good guys as Good Guys.
    – scohe001
    6 hours ago










  • As I see it, this question asks for help with "what to write".
    – user57423
    4 hours ago










  • @user57423 I've edited to address your concern.
    – scohe001
    4 hours ago













up vote
7
down vote

favorite
1









up vote
7
down vote

favorite
1






1





My good guys murder people. They slowly carve runes onto them to help defeat the bad guys. Sure they try to use "society's worst" people for the rituals, but realistically that doesn't always happen.



This is revealed to the main character and when the MC pushes, the good guys are unapologetic about all of it (similar to how the first paragraph is written). Of course MC shuns them and dissociates himself with them.



My goal is to make the MC come to view the good guys as Good Guys.



Eventually, MC realizes that the killing is necessary and comes to accept the good guys. But I can't get him to go from accepting what they're doing as necessary to then believing they're Good Guys. How can I make this leap? What am I missing?



Edit: In response to a comment, I'm not asking a "what to write" or what my plot should be or how the world should work. Rather, I'm trying to make a character pull a full 180 on their perspective of "right" and "wrong" or what is "good." I've begun the turn and am (what I feel to be) about halfway--my MC has accepted what's happening as necessary but still feels uneasy about it. I'm asking about how I can push a character over the edge and twist their beliefs while making it more believable than "He woke up the next day thinking they were good." What should I focus on to make this believable? At the moment, I feel like anything I do will be clearly fake.










share|improve this question















My good guys murder people. They slowly carve runes onto them to help defeat the bad guys. Sure they try to use "society's worst" people for the rituals, but realistically that doesn't always happen.



This is revealed to the main character and when the MC pushes, the good guys are unapologetic about all of it (similar to how the first paragraph is written). Of course MC shuns them and dissociates himself with them.



My goal is to make the MC come to view the good guys as Good Guys.



Eventually, MC realizes that the killing is necessary and comes to accept the good guys. But I can't get him to go from accepting what they're doing as necessary to then believing they're Good Guys. How can I make this leap? What am I missing?



Edit: In response to a comment, I'm not asking a "what to write" or what my plot should be or how the world should work. Rather, I'm trying to make a character pull a full 180 on their perspective of "right" and "wrong" or what is "good." I've begun the turn and am (what I feel to be) about halfway--my MC has accepted what's happening as necessary but still feels uneasy about it. I'm asking about how I can push a character over the edge and twist their beliefs while making it more believable than "He woke up the next day thinking they were good." What should I focus on to make this believable? At the moment, I feel like anything I do will be clearly fake.







creative-writing characters character-development






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 3 hours ago

























asked 8 hours ago









scohe001

1605




1605








  • 4




    Maybe there's no need to make the leap at all? A story that raises a question like "Do the ends justify the means?" and doesn't take sides about the answer, sounds more interesting to me than a story that comes down clearly on one side.
    – user37208
    8 hours ago










  • So, they torture-kill "society's worst" people for a higher cause? Can those "society's worst" be seen under (legal or perceived) death sentence? "We execute a murderer, and thwart a BIG EVIL. It's a win-win!"
    – Alexander
    7 hours ago












  • @user37208 I completely agree with the back half of your comment. A lot of what I'm doing is questioning if this is truly worth it (ends justifying the means), but later in the story I want to twist this MC to the point where they become an anti-hero. And I feel the first step is seeing the good guys as Good Guys.
    – scohe001
    6 hours ago










  • As I see it, this question asks for help with "what to write".
    – user57423
    4 hours ago










  • @user57423 I've edited to address your concern.
    – scohe001
    4 hours ago














  • 4




    Maybe there's no need to make the leap at all? A story that raises a question like "Do the ends justify the means?" and doesn't take sides about the answer, sounds more interesting to me than a story that comes down clearly on one side.
    – user37208
    8 hours ago










  • So, they torture-kill "society's worst" people for a higher cause? Can those "society's worst" be seen under (legal or perceived) death sentence? "We execute a murderer, and thwart a BIG EVIL. It's a win-win!"
    – Alexander
    7 hours ago












  • @user37208 I completely agree with the back half of your comment. A lot of what I'm doing is questioning if this is truly worth it (ends justifying the means), but later in the story I want to twist this MC to the point where they become an anti-hero. And I feel the first step is seeing the good guys as Good Guys.
    – scohe001
    6 hours ago










  • As I see it, this question asks for help with "what to write".
    – user57423
    4 hours ago










  • @user57423 I've edited to address your concern.
    – scohe001
    4 hours ago








4




4




Maybe there's no need to make the leap at all? A story that raises a question like "Do the ends justify the means?" and doesn't take sides about the answer, sounds more interesting to me than a story that comes down clearly on one side.
– user37208
8 hours ago




Maybe there's no need to make the leap at all? A story that raises a question like "Do the ends justify the means?" and doesn't take sides about the answer, sounds more interesting to me than a story that comes down clearly on one side.
– user37208
8 hours ago












So, they torture-kill "society's worst" people for a higher cause? Can those "society's worst" be seen under (legal or perceived) death sentence? "We execute a murderer, and thwart a BIG EVIL. It's a win-win!"
– Alexander
7 hours ago






So, they torture-kill "society's worst" people for a higher cause? Can those "society's worst" be seen under (legal or perceived) death sentence? "We execute a murderer, and thwart a BIG EVIL. It's a win-win!"
– Alexander
7 hours ago














@user37208 I completely agree with the back half of your comment. A lot of what I'm doing is questioning if this is truly worth it (ends justifying the means), but later in the story I want to twist this MC to the point where they become an anti-hero. And I feel the first step is seeing the good guys as Good Guys.
– scohe001
6 hours ago




@user37208 I completely agree with the back half of your comment. A lot of what I'm doing is questioning if this is truly worth it (ends justifying the means), but later in the story I want to twist this MC to the point where they become an anti-hero. And I feel the first step is seeing the good guys as Good Guys.
– scohe001
6 hours ago












As I see it, this question asks for help with "what to write".
– user57423
4 hours ago




As I see it, this question asks for help with "what to write".
– user57423
4 hours ago












@user57423 I've edited to address your concern.
– scohe001
4 hours ago




@user57423 I've edited to address your concern.
– scohe001
4 hours ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
7
down vote













According to Adam Smith's The Theory of Moral Sentiments, proper moral sentiments may be defined as how a disinterested observer would think someone ELSE ought to feel in a given circumstance. Given that yardstick, I am not myself convinced that your MC is wrong. My own reaction is that anyone who isn't horrified by committing brutally cruel murder is morally deformed - no matter how important it happens to be for that specific carnage to continue.



It sounds as if your character's moral compass is functioning correctly.



Organic characters don't always feel or act as the author intends. In the case that your characters grow organically, you have to negotiate with the character, and accept that you can't always steamroll them into occupying exactly the place the plot called for them to occupy at a particular point in the plot's progression.






share|improve this answer

















  • 2




    Given that yardstick, I absolutely think the MC is wrong. Sometimes war and killing, even brutally, is necessary, and if we didn't believe that we'd be ruled by the psychopaths that ARE willing to do anything for power and wealth. So clearly Adam Smith's theory is useless whenever two people disagree, or indeed if the vote is not unanimous. And just because brutal killing is at times necessary, does not automatically mean the people committing it are not horrified by the act, they are just doing what they believe is a necessity. That's at least part of what PTSD is all about.
    – Amadeus
    5 hours ago






  • 1




    @Amadeus I thought we were talking about some sort of contrived "human torture and sacrifice to STOP the arrival of the Elder Gods who will destroy everything" scenario, not normal human war. That's a whole different conversation.
    – Jedediah
    4 hours ago


















up vote
6
down vote














How can I make this leap?




The MC needs proof he cannot deny. Perhaps, by his own hand, he doesn't just shun them, he takes action to prevent this ritualistic murder from happening. What are the consequences of that?



There better be some consequences, or these ritual murders are not accomplishing a damn thing!



But there are consequences, weird consequences that cause extreme pain or even death to innocents, perhaps to children. And the weirdest thing about these consequences are that they are precisely what the "good guys" told the MC would happen; and they are too magical or weird for the good guys to have done this harm themselves.



In short, the MC believes this is proof the good guys were right. Once he knows that, he can still try to squirm and see if there is any other way to prevent the consequences without having to commit torture and murder. Perhaps that is part of the plot, him trying and failing to find an alternative (or eventually trying and succeeding).



But the turning point is accomplished; at this point the MC has left his "normal world" and believes the good guys are on balance doing good, and he needs to join them. How long all of this takes depends on whether you have a bigger plot in mind. Just the conversion of the MC could be a story, but it could also be a short intro into a larger story if he has a bigger problem than this to solve.





Edit: All that already happened...



The question was how to move the MC from seeing the killings as necessary, into participating in the killings.



But the answer is the same, it is still by showing the consequences of NOT killing. He thinks it is necessary? Then invent a reason that makes him the only one that can do it. One or more of the good guys dies, or gets incarcerated or otherwise taken out of the picture, so there isn't enough of them to safely capture and kill a criminal.



Your MC has to step in, or the consequences kick in. Force an emergency on him. If he truly believes the killings are necessary, he will blame himself for whatever innocents suffer if he doesn't step up when he is needed.






share|improve this answer























  • Hmm this has already happened. I tried to express this in the original question with: "Eventually, MC realizes that the killing is necessary and comes to accept the good guys." The MC has already fallen over the edge and has even accepted what they do as a necessity, but they're not comfortable with it and still don't entirely accept it as "right." My question is how I can push the MC further to cross that bridge.
    – scohe001
    6 hours ago










  • @scohe001 Ah. I got sidetracked. But the answer is the same, it is still by showing the consequences of NOT killing. He thinks it is necessary? Then invent a reason that makes him the only one that can do it. One or more of the good guys dies, or gets incarcerated or otherwise taken out of the picture, so there isn't enough of them to safely capture and kill a criminal. Your MC has to step in, or the consequences kick in. Force an emergency on him. If he truly believes the killings are necessary, he will blame himself for whatever innocents suffer if he doesn't step up when he is needed.
    – Amadeus
    6 hours ago










  • Ooh I really really like that. Force him to stand in the good guys' shoes. I could even have someone else (a reflection of who the MC once was) see the MC stepping in and then let the MC deal with the judgement. You should definitely add that to your answer!!
    – scohe001
    6 hours ago










  • I believe the show Dead Like Me had an episode that served as the capstone to the main character's initial arc of refusing to collect souls, if you're interested in a pop culture example of this happening.
    – Trevortni
    3 hours ago










  • One can be pushed over the edge if the consequence is happening to someone they love. If someone was going to kill my child and I would have to kill someone else to stop it - I. might.. just... do.... it.....
    – CramerTV
    1 hour ago













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2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes








2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes








up vote
7
down vote













According to Adam Smith's The Theory of Moral Sentiments, proper moral sentiments may be defined as how a disinterested observer would think someone ELSE ought to feel in a given circumstance. Given that yardstick, I am not myself convinced that your MC is wrong. My own reaction is that anyone who isn't horrified by committing brutally cruel murder is morally deformed - no matter how important it happens to be for that specific carnage to continue.



It sounds as if your character's moral compass is functioning correctly.



Organic characters don't always feel or act as the author intends. In the case that your characters grow organically, you have to negotiate with the character, and accept that you can't always steamroll them into occupying exactly the place the plot called for them to occupy at a particular point in the plot's progression.






share|improve this answer

















  • 2




    Given that yardstick, I absolutely think the MC is wrong. Sometimes war and killing, even brutally, is necessary, and if we didn't believe that we'd be ruled by the psychopaths that ARE willing to do anything for power and wealth. So clearly Adam Smith's theory is useless whenever two people disagree, or indeed if the vote is not unanimous. And just because brutal killing is at times necessary, does not automatically mean the people committing it are not horrified by the act, they are just doing what they believe is a necessity. That's at least part of what PTSD is all about.
    – Amadeus
    5 hours ago






  • 1




    @Amadeus I thought we were talking about some sort of contrived "human torture and sacrifice to STOP the arrival of the Elder Gods who will destroy everything" scenario, not normal human war. That's a whole different conversation.
    – Jedediah
    4 hours ago















up vote
7
down vote













According to Adam Smith's The Theory of Moral Sentiments, proper moral sentiments may be defined as how a disinterested observer would think someone ELSE ought to feel in a given circumstance. Given that yardstick, I am not myself convinced that your MC is wrong. My own reaction is that anyone who isn't horrified by committing brutally cruel murder is morally deformed - no matter how important it happens to be for that specific carnage to continue.



It sounds as if your character's moral compass is functioning correctly.



Organic characters don't always feel or act as the author intends. In the case that your characters grow organically, you have to negotiate with the character, and accept that you can't always steamroll them into occupying exactly the place the plot called for them to occupy at a particular point in the plot's progression.






share|improve this answer

















  • 2




    Given that yardstick, I absolutely think the MC is wrong. Sometimes war and killing, even brutally, is necessary, and if we didn't believe that we'd be ruled by the psychopaths that ARE willing to do anything for power and wealth. So clearly Adam Smith's theory is useless whenever two people disagree, or indeed if the vote is not unanimous. And just because brutal killing is at times necessary, does not automatically mean the people committing it are not horrified by the act, they are just doing what they believe is a necessity. That's at least part of what PTSD is all about.
    – Amadeus
    5 hours ago






  • 1




    @Amadeus I thought we were talking about some sort of contrived "human torture and sacrifice to STOP the arrival of the Elder Gods who will destroy everything" scenario, not normal human war. That's a whole different conversation.
    – Jedediah
    4 hours ago













up vote
7
down vote










up vote
7
down vote









According to Adam Smith's The Theory of Moral Sentiments, proper moral sentiments may be defined as how a disinterested observer would think someone ELSE ought to feel in a given circumstance. Given that yardstick, I am not myself convinced that your MC is wrong. My own reaction is that anyone who isn't horrified by committing brutally cruel murder is morally deformed - no matter how important it happens to be for that specific carnage to continue.



It sounds as if your character's moral compass is functioning correctly.



Organic characters don't always feel or act as the author intends. In the case that your characters grow organically, you have to negotiate with the character, and accept that you can't always steamroll them into occupying exactly the place the plot called for them to occupy at a particular point in the plot's progression.






share|improve this answer












According to Adam Smith's The Theory of Moral Sentiments, proper moral sentiments may be defined as how a disinterested observer would think someone ELSE ought to feel in a given circumstance. Given that yardstick, I am not myself convinced that your MC is wrong. My own reaction is that anyone who isn't horrified by committing brutally cruel murder is morally deformed - no matter how important it happens to be for that specific carnage to continue.



It sounds as if your character's moral compass is functioning correctly.



Organic characters don't always feel or act as the author intends. In the case that your characters grow organically, you have to negotiate with the character, and accept that you can't always steamroll them into occupying exactly the place the plot called for them to occupy at a particular point in the plot's progression.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 7 hours ago









Jedediah

82626




82626








  • 2




    Given that yardstick, I absolutely think the MC is wrong. Sometimes war and killing, even brutally, is necessary, and if we didn't believe that we'd be ruled by the psychopaths that ARE willing to do anything for power and wealth. So clearly Adam Smith's theory is useless whenever two people disagree, or indeed if the vote is not unanimous. And just because brutal killing is at times necessary, does not automatically mean the people committing it are not horrified by the act, they are just doing what they believe is a necessity. That's at least part of what PTSD is all about.
    – Amadeus
    5 hours ago






  • 1




    @Amadeus I thought we were talking about some sort of contrived "human torture and sacrifice to STOP the arrival of the Elder Gods who will destroy everything" scenario, not normal human war. That's a whole different conversation.
    – Jedediah
    4 hours ago














  • 2




    Given that yardstick, I absolutely think the MC is wrong. Sometimes war and killing, even brutally, is necessary, and if we didn't believe that we'd be ruled by the psychopaths that ARE willing to do anything for power and wealth. So clearly Adam Smith's theory is useless whenever two people disagree, or indeed if the vote is not unanimous. And just because brutal killing is at times necessary, does not automatically mean the people committing it are not horrified by the act, they are just doing what they believe is a necessity. That's at least part of what PTSD is all about.
    – Amadeus
    5 hours ago






  • 1




    @Amadeus I thought we were talking about some sort of contrived "human torture and sacrifice to STOP the arrival of the Elder Gods who will destroy everything" scenario, not normal human war. That's a whole different conversation.
    – Jedediah
    4 hours ago








2




2




Given that yardstick, I absolutely think the MC is wrong. Sometimes war and killing, even brutally, is necessary, and if we didn't believe that we'd be ruled by the psychopaths that ARE willing to do anything for power and wealth. So clearly Adam Smith's theory is useless whenever two people disagree, or indeed if the vote is not unanimous. And just because brutal killing is at times necessary, does not automatically mean the people committing it are not horrified by the act, they are just doing what they believe is a necessity. That's at least part of what PTSD is all about.
– Amadeus
5 hours ago




Given that yardstick, I absolutely think the MC is wrong. Sometimes war and killing, even brutally, is necessary, and if we didn't believe that we'd be ruled by the psychopaths that ARE willing to do anything for power and wealth. So clearly Adam Smith's theory is useless whenever two people disagree, or indeed if the vote is not unanimous. And just because brutal killing is at times necessary, does not automatically mean the people committing it are not horrified by the act, they are just doing what they believe is a necessity. That's at least part of what PTSD is all about.
– Amadeus
5 hours ago




1




1




@Amadeus I thought we were talking about some sort of contrived "human torture and sacrifice to STOP the arrival of the Elder Gods who will destroy everything" scenario, not normal human war. That's a whole different conversation.
– Jedediah
4 hours ago




@Amadeus I thought we were talking about some sort of contrived "human torture and sacrifice to STOP the arrival of the Elder Gods who will destroy everything" scenario, not normal human war. That's a whole different conversation.
– Jedediah
4 hours ago










up vote
6
down vote














How can I make this leap?




The MC needs proof he cannot deny. Perhaps, by his own hand, he doesn't just shun them, he takes action to prevent this ritualistic murder from happening. What are the consequences of that?



There better be some consequences, or these ritual murders are not accomplishing a damn thing!



But there are consequences, weird consequences that cause extreme pain or even death to innocents, perhaps to children. And the weirdest thing about these consequences are that they are precisely what the "good guys" told the MC would happen; and they are too magical or weird for the good guys to have done this harm themselves.



In short, the MC believes this is proof the good guys were right. Once he knows that, he can still try to squirm and see if there is any other way to prevent the consequences without having to commit torture and murder. Perhaps that is part of the plot, him trying and failing to find an alternative (or eventually trying and succeeding).



But the turning point is accomplished; at this point the MC has left his "normal world" and believes the good guys are on balance doing good, and he needs to join them. How long all of this takes depends on whether you have a bigger plot in mind. Just the conversion of the MC could be a story, but it could also be a short intro into a larger story if he has a bigger problem than this to solve.





Edit: All that already happened...



The question was how to move the MC from seeing the killings as necessary, into participating in the killings.



But the answer is the same, it is still by showing the consequences of NOT killing. He thinks it is necessary? Then invent a reason that makes him the only one that can do it. One or more of the good guys dies, or gets incarcerated or otherwise taken out of the picture, so there isn't enough of them to safely capture and kill a criminal.



Your MC has to step in, or the consequences kick in. Force an emergency on him. If he truly believes the killings are necessary, he will blame himself for whatever innocents suffer if he doesn't step up when he is needed.






share|improve this answer























  • Hmm this has already happened. I tried to express this in the original question with: "Eventually, MC realizes that the killing is necessary and comes to accept the good guys." The MC has already fallen over the edge and has even accepted what they do as a necessity, but they're not comfortable with it and still don't entirely accept it as "right." My question is how I can push the MC further to cross that bridge.
    – scohe001
    6 hours ago










  • @scohe001 Ah. I got sidetracked. But the answer is the same, it is still by showing the consequences of NOT killing. He thinks it is necessary? Then invent a reason that makes him the only one that can do it. One or more of the good guys dies, or gets incarcerated or otherwise taken out of the picture, so there isn't enough of them to safely capture and kill a criminal. Your MC has to step in, or the consequences kick in. Force an emergency on him. If he truly believes the killings are necessary, he will blame himself for whatever innocents suffer if he doesn't step up when he is needed.
    – Amadeus
    6 hours ago










  • Ooh I really really like that. Force him to stand in the good guys' shoes. I could even have someone else (a reflection of who the MC once was) see the MC stepping in and then let the MC deal with the judgement. You should definitely add that to your answer!!
    – scohe001
    6 hours ago










  • I believe the show Dead Like Me had an episode that served as the capstone to the main character's initial arc of refusing to collect souls, if you're interested in a pop culture example of this happening.
    – Trevortni
    3 hours ago










  • One can be pushed over the edge if the consequence is happening to someone they love. If someone was going to kill my child and I would have to kill someone else to stop it - I. might.. just... do.... it.....
    – CramerTV
    1 hour ago

















up vote
6
down vote














How can I make this leap?




The MC needs proof he cannot deny. Perhaps, by his own hand, he doesn't just shun them, he takes action to prevent this ritualistic murder from happening. What are the consequences of that?



There better be some consequences, or these ritual murders are not accomplishing a damn thing!



But there are consequences, weird consequences that cause extreme pain or even death to innocents, perhaps to children. And the weirdest thing about these consequences are that they are precisely what the "good guys" told the MC would happen; and they are too magical or weird for the good guys to have done this harm themselves.



In short, the MC believes this is proof the good guys were right. Once he knows that, he can still try to squirm and see if there is any other way to prevent the consequences without having to commit torture and murder. Perhaps that is part of the plot, him trying and failing to find an alternative (or eventually trying and succeeding).



But the turning point is accomplished; at this point the MC has left his "normal world" and believes the good guys are on balance doing good, and he needs to join them. How long all of this takes depends on whether you have a bigger plot in mind. Just the conversion of the MC could be a story, but it could also be a short intro into a larger story if he has a bigger problem than this to solve.





Edit: All that already happened...



The question was how to move the MC from seeing the killings as necessary, into participating in the killings.



But the answer is the same, it is still by showing the consequences of NOT killing. He thinks it is necessary? Then invent a reason that makes him the only one that can do it. One or more of the good guys dies, or gets incarcerated or otherwise taken out of the picture, so there isn't enough of them to safely capture and kill a criminal.



Your MC has to step in, or the consequences kick in. Force an emergency on him. If he truly believes the killings are necessary, he will blame himself for whatever innocents suffer if he doesn't step up when he is needed.






share|improve this answer























  • Hmm this has already happened. I tried to express this in the original question with: "Eventually, MC realizes that the killing is necessary and comes to accept the good guys." The MC has already fallen over the edge and has even accepted what they do as a necessity, but they're not comfortable with it and still don't entirely accept it as "right." My question is how I can push the MC further to cross that bridge.
    – scohe001
    6 hours ago










  • @scohe001 Ah. I got sidetracked. But the answer is the same, it is still by showing the consequences of NOT killing. He thinks it is necessary? Then invent a reason that makes him the only one that can do it. One or more of the good guys dies, or gets incarcerated or otherwise taken out of the picture, so there isn't enough of them to safely capture and kill a criminal. Your MC has to step in, or the consequences kick in. Force an emergency on him. If he truly believes the killings are necessary, he will blame himself for whatever innocents suffer if he doesn't step up when he is needed.
    – Amadeus
    6 hours ago










  • Ooh I really really like that. Force him to stand in the good guys' shoes. I could even have someone else (a reflection of who the MC once was) see the MC stepping in and then let the MC deal with the judgement. You should definitely add that to your answer!!
    – scohe001
    6 hours ago










  • I believe the show Dead Like Me had an episode that served as the capstone to the main character's initial arc of refusing to collect souls, if you're interested in a pop culture example of this happening.
    – Trevortni
    3 hours ago










  • One can be pushed over the edge if the consequence is happening to someone they love. If someone was going to kill my child and I would have to kill someone else to stop it - I. might.. just... do.... it.....
    – CramerTV
    1 hour ago















up vote
6
down vote










up vote
6
down vote










How can I make this leap?




The MC needs proof he cannot deny. Perhaps, by his own hand, he doesn't just shun them, he takes action to prevent this ritualistic murder from happening. What are the consequences of that?



There better be some consequences, or these ritual murders are not accomplishing a damn thing!



But there are consequences, weird consequences that cause extreme pain or even death to innocents, perhaps to children. And the weirdest thing about these consequences are that they are precisely what the "good guys" told the MC would happen; and they are too magical or weird for the good guys to have done this harm themselves.



In short, the MC believes this is proof the good guys were right. Once he knows that, he can still try to squirm and see if there is any other way to prevent the consequences without having to commit torture and murder. Perhaps that is part of the plot, him trying and failing to find an alternative (or eventually trying and succeeding).



But the turning point is accomplished; at this point the MC has left his "normal world" and believes the good guys are on balance doing good, and he needs to join them. How long all of this takes depends on whether you have a bigger plot in mind. Just the conversion of the MC could be a story, but it could also be a short intro into a larger story if he has a bigger problem than this to solve.





Edit: All that already happened...



The question was how to move the MC from seeing the killings as necessary, into participating in the killings.



But the answer is the same, it is still by showing the consequences of NOT killing. He thinks it is necessary? Then invent a reason that makes him the only one that can do it. One or more of the good guys dies, or gets incarcerated or otherwise taken out of the picture, so there isn't enough of them to safely capture and kill a criminal.



Your MC has to step in, or the consequences kick in. Force an emergency on him. If he truly believes the killings are necessary, he will blame himself for whatever innocents suffer if he doesn't step up when he is needed.






share|improve this answer















How can I make this leap?




The MC needs proof he cannot deny. Perhaps, by his own hand, he doesn't just shun them, he takes action to prevent this ritualistic murder from happening. What are the consequences of that?



There better be some consequences, or these ritual murders are not accomplishing a damn thing!



But there are consequences, weird consequences that cause extreme pain or even death to innocents, perhaps to children. And the weirdest thing about these consequences are that they are precisely what the "good guys" told the MC would happen; and they are too magical or weird for the good guys to have done this harm themselves.



In short, the MC believes this is proof the good guys were right. Once he knows that, he can still try to squirm and see if there is any other way to prevent the consequences without having to commit torture and murder. Perhaps that is part of the plot, him trying and failing to find an alternative (or eventually trying and succeeding).



But the turning point is accomplished; at this point the MC has left his "normal world" and believes the good guys are on balance doing good, and he needs to join them. How long all of this takes depends on whether you have a bigger plot in mind. Just the conversion of the MC could be a story, but it could also be a short intro into a larger story if he has a bigger problem than this to solve.





Edit: All that already happened...



The question was how to move the MC from seeing the killings as necessary, into participating in the killings.



But the answer is the same, it is still by showing the consequences of NOT killing. He thinks it is necessary? Then invent a reason that makes him the only one that can do it. One or more of the good guys dies, or gets incarcerated or otherwise taken out of the picture, so there isn't enough of them to safely capture and kill a criminal.



Your MC has to step in, or the consequences kick in. Force an emergency on him. If he truly believes the killings are necessary, he will blame himself for whatever innocents suffer if he doesn't step up when he is needed.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 6 hours ago

























answered 8 hours ago









Amadeus

44.3k354140




44.3k354140












  • Hmm this has already happened. I tried to express this in the original question with: "Eventually, MC realizes that the killing is necessary and comes to accept the good guys." The MC has already fallen over the edge and has even accepted what they do as a necessity, but they're not comfortable with it and still don't entirely accept it as "right." My question is how I can push the MC further to cross that bridge.
    – scohe001
    6 hours ago










  • @scohe001 Ah. I got sidetracked. But the answer is the same, it is still by showing the consequences of NOT killing. He thinks it is necessary? Then invent a reason that makes him the only one that can do it. One or more of the good guys dies, or gets incarcerated or otherwise taken out of the picture, so there isn't enough of them to safely capture and kill a criminal. Your MC has to step in, or the consequences kick in. Force an emergency on him. If he truly believes the killings are necessary, he will blame himself for whatever innocents suffer if he doesn't step up when he is needed.
    – Amadeus
    6 hours ago










  • Ooh I really really like that. Force him to stand in the good guys' shoes. I could even have someone else (a reflection of who the MC once was) see the MC stepping in and then let the MC deal with the judgement. You should definitely add that to your answer!!
    – scohe001
    6 hours ago










  • I believe the show Dead Like Me had an episode that served as the capstone to the main character's initial arc of refusing to collect souls, if you're interested in a pop culture example of this happening.
    – Trevortni
    3 hours ago










  • One can be pushed over the edge if the consequence is happening to someone they love. If someone was going to kill my child and I would have to kill someone else to stop it - I. might.. just... do.... it.....
    – CramerTV
    1 hour ago




















  • Hmm this has already happened. I tried to express this in the original question with: "Eventually, MC realizes that the killing is necessary and comes to accept the good guys." The MC has already fallen over the edge and has even accepted what they do as a necessity, but they're not comfortable with it and still don't entirely accept it as "right." My question is how I can push the MC further to cross that bridge.
    – scohe001
    6 hours ago










  • @scohe001 Ah. I got sidetracked. But the answer is the same, it is still by showing the consequences of NOT killing. He thinks it is necessary? Then invent a reason that makes him the only one that can do it. One or more of the good guys dies, or gets incarcerated or otherwise taken out of the picture, so there isn't enough of them to safely capture and kill a criminal. Your MC has to step in, or the consequences kick in. Force an emergency on him. If he truly believes the killings are necessary, he will blame himself for whatever innocents suffer if he doesn't step up when he is needed.
    – Amadeus
    6 hours ago










  • Ooh I really really like that. Force him to stand in the good guys' shoes. I could even have someone else (a reflection of who the MC once was) see the MC stepping in and then let the MC deal with the judgement. You should definitely add that to your answer!!
    – scohe001
    6 hours ago










  • I believe the show Dead Like Me had an episode that served as the capstone to the main character's initial arc of refusing to collect souls, if you're interested in a pop culture example of this happening.
    – Trevortni
    3 hours ago










  • One can be pushed over the edge if the consequence is happening to someone they love. If someone was going to kill my child and I would have to kill someone else to stop it - I. might.. just... do.... it.....
    – CramerTV
    1 hour ago


















Hmm this has already happened. I tried to express this in the original question with: "Eventually, MC realizes that the killing is necessary and comes to accept the good guys." The MC has already fallen over the edge and has even accepted what they do as a necessity, but they're not comfortable with it and still don't entirely accept it as "right." My question is how I can push the MC further to cross that bridge.
– scohe001
6 hours ago




Hmm this has already happened. I tried to express this in the original question with: "Eventually, MC realizes that the killing is necessary and comes to accept the good guys." The MC has already fallen over the edge and has even accepted what they do as a necessity, but they're not comfortable with it and still don't entirely accept it as "right." My question is how I can push the MC further to cross that bridge.
– scohe001
6 hours ago












@scohe001 Ah. I got sidetracked. But the answer is the same, it is still by showing the consequences of NOT killing. He thinks it is necessary? Then invent a reason that makes him the only one that can do it. One or more of the good guys dies, or gets incarcerated or otherwise taken out of the picture, so there isn't enough of them to safely capture and kill a criminal. Your MC has to step in, or the consequences kick in. Force an emergency on him. If he truly believes the killings are necessary, he will blame himself for whatever innocents suffer if he doesn't step up when he is needed.
– Amadeus
6 hours ago




@scohe001 Ah. I got sidetracked. But the answer is the same, it is still by showing the consequences of NOT killing. He thinks it is necessary? Then invent a reason that makes him the only one that can do it. One or more of the good guys dies, or gets incarcerated or otherwise taken out of the picture, so there isn't enough of them to safely capture and kill a criminal. Your MC has to step in, or the consequences kick in. Force an emergency on him. If he truly believes the killings are necessary, he will blame himself for whatever innocents suffer if he doesn't step up when he is needed.
– Amadeus
6 hours ago












Ooh I really really like that. Force him to stand in the good guys' shoes. I could even have someone else (a reflection of who the MC once was) see the MC stepping in and then let the MC deal with the judgement. You should definitely add that to your answer!!
– scohe001
6 hours ago




Ooh I really really like that. Force him to stand in the good guys' shoes. I could even have someone else (a reflection of who the MC once was) see the MC stepping in and then let the MC deal with the judgement. You should definitely add that to your answer!!
– scohe001
6 hours ago












I believe the show Dead Like Me had an episode that served as the capstone to the main character's initial arc of refusing to collect souls, if you're interested in a pop culture example of this happening.
– Trevortni
3 hours ago




I believe the show Dead Like Me had an episode that served as the capstone to the main character's initial arc of refusing to collect souls, if you're interested in a pop culture example of this happening.
– Trevortni
3 hours ago












One can be pushed over the edge if the consequence is happening to someone they love. If someone was going to kill my child and I would have to kill someone else to stop it - I. might.. just... do.... it.....
– CramerTV
1 hour ago






One can be pushed over the edge if the consequence is happening to someone they love. If someone was going to kill my child and I would have to kill someone else to stop it - I. might.. just... do.... it.....
– CramerTV
1 hour ago




















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