Do dev teams put fewer constraints on themselves or have they fewer constraints in terms of work hours?
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In a given company everybody arrives between 9:30am and 10am. Yet the dev team (front/back) always arrive between 11:30 and 12pm. If this is typical, why do people put fewer time constraints on dev teams, or why do dev teams put fewer constraints on themselves? Is this because of the work market? Is it part of the culture?
Thanks for your answers. Has there been a study on this managerial issue? I find it difficult to accept an answer without strong references in the measure that I will base at once only on my a priori.
management work-time time-management
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up vote
34
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In a given company everybody arrives between 9:30am and 10am. Yet the dev team (front/back) always arrive between 11:30 and 12pm. If this is typical, why do people put fewer time constraints on dev teams, or why do dev teams put fewer constraints on themselves? Is this because of the work market? Is it part of the culture?
Thanks for your answers. Has there been a study on this managerial issue? I find it difficult to accept an answer without strong references in the measure that I will base at once only on my a priori.
management work-time time-management
2
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Jane S♦
yesterday
You mentioned this as a "managerial issue", but haven't said what the issue is. Is it that they have been asked to come in earlier but do not? Is it that two teams work different "shifts" so don't have much time to communicate? A team coming in later in the day in and of itself is not an issue. I don't mean that to say teams should be allowed to come in whenever, I mean that to say as your question is worded right now it makes it seem like there is some issue specifically that you are trying to deal with but you didn't say what it is.
– Captain Man
9 hours ago
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up vote
34
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up vote
34
down vote
favorite
In a given company everybody arrives between 9:30am and 10am. Yet the dev team (front/back) always arrive between 11:30 and 12pm. If this is typical, why do people put fewer time constraints on dev teams, or why do dev teams put fewer constraints on themselves? Is this because of the work market? Is it part of the culture?
Thanks for your answers. Has there been a study on this managerial issue? I find it difficult to accept an answer without strong references in the measure that I will base at once only on my a priori.
management work-time time-management
In a given company everybody arrives between 9:30am and 10am. Yet the dev team (front/back) always arrive between 11:30 and 12pm. If this is typical, why do people put fewer time constraints on dev teams, or why do dev teams put fewer constraints on themselves? Is this because of the work market? Is it part of the culture?
Thanks for your answers. Has there been a study on this managerial issue? I find it difficult to accept an answer without strong references in the measure that I will base at once only on my a priori.
management work-time time-management
management work-time time-management
edited 36 mins ago
Jesse Steele
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asked yesterday
ThePassenger
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Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Jane S♦
yesterday
You mentioned this as a "managerial issue", but haven't said what the issue is. Is it that they have been asked to come in earlier but do not? Is it that two teams work different "shifts" so don't have much time to communicate? A team coming in later in the day in and of itself is not an issue. I don't mean that to say teams should be allowed to come in whenever, I mean that to say as your question is worded right now it makes it seem like there is some issue specifically that you are trying to deal with but you didn't say what it is.
– Captain Man
9 hours ago
add a comment |
2
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Jane S♦
yesterday
You mentioned this as a "managerial issue", but haven't said what the issue is. Is it that they have been asked to come in earlier but do not? Is it that two teams work different "shifts" so don't have much time to communicate? A team coming in later in the day in and of itself is not an issue. I don't mean that to say teams should be allowed to come in whenever, I mean that to say as your question is worded right now it makes it seem like there is some issue specifically that you are trying to deal with but you didn't say what it is.
– Captain Man
9 hours ago
2
2
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Jane S♦
yesterday
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Jane S♦
yesterday
You mentioned this as a "managerial issue", but haven't said what the issue is. Is it that they have been asked to come in earlier but do not? Is it that two teams work different "shifts" so don't have much time to communicate? A team coming in later in the day in and of itself is not an issue. I don't mean that to say teams should be allowed to come in whenever, I mean that to say as your question is worded right now it makes it seem like there is some issue specifically that you are trying to deal with but you didn't say what it is.
– Captain Man
9 hours ago
You mentioned this as a "managerial issue", but haven't said what the issue is. Is it that they have been asked to come in earlier but do not? Is it that two teams work different "shifts" so don't have much time to communicate? A team coming in later in the day in and of itself is not an issue. I don't mean that to say teams should be allowed to come in whenever, I mean that to say as your question is worded right now it makes it seem like there is some issue specifically that you are trying to deal with but you didn't say what it is.
– Captain Man
9 hours ago
add a comment |
9 Answers
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up vote
141
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The main question is why they (or anyone) should be in the office at 9:30. Do you (or the customer) need to contact the devs in the morning?
Fixed schedules are mostly to make sure that people can be contacted or can meet each other and so closed groups only need to find a time that works for them.
I also don't think they have less constraints. The have just different constraints. You could also formulate your questions as "Why do devs have to stay so late in the evening when everyone is allowed to leave earlier"?
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Jane S♦
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
56
down vote
Might be multiple factors, including:
- They work later in the evening.
- Development is creative and mentally exhausting work so efficiency typically start to go down somewhere around 4-6 hours. By having more time to rest they might actually be more effective by working fewer hours.
- If they get paid enough they might accept a pay cut to work less hours, getting more time to ... not work.
- Some devs (usually contractors) get paid for finishing their tasks on time. Why then stay in the office longer than necessary?
- In some circles this is part of the culture, I have definitely heard it from multiple people. Usually revolving around my points 2 and 3.
25
They could also be working remotely
– GPPK
yesterday
8
I would add: Working from home. I wake up everyday at 9, get online and reply to emails, chats, while having my breakfast and coffee. Then until 11:30, I go and sit on my office and do some work then leave whenever I feel like leaving, to then continue from home.
– Sandra K
yesterday
5
For 2: Bugs. When a developer is tired, they make mistakes. Mistakes that have consequences later on and more time has to be spent identifying and solving.
– afaulconbridge
yesterday
6
Or they may be managing or managed by an offshore resource. At times my work day has started at 5:00 am and at others at 2:00 pm.
– John Wu
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
29
down vote
My company is similar, we have a dev team that can show up between 7am and 10am and leave between 2pm and 6pm, roughly. Our CTO focuses on accomplished tasks not really hours worked. That's not to say hours don't matter, but the key metric revolved on product completion, not time spent on product. The time spent metrics are typically used to deciding how much more work we can take on as a firm. But outside that, we're expected to just do our work. The sales / marketing / management side of the office are in at more stable times because their jobs requires them to be in during business hours.
Keep in mind, sometimes developers need to "percolate" their solutions. When it looks like their doing nothing or if their not in, it doesn't mean the problem isn't being worked on. I can't tell you how many times I've worked through a problem while in the shower in the evening... But that's sort of the nature of the beast.
The point here, is the development position has a lot more flexibility because software construction allows for the flexibility. Also, because that's the case, it allows firms to offer flex hours which is always welcome. Since the knowledge economy is about autonomy, mastery and purpose. The more autonomy someone has in doing their work the better and since software is the product, then making sure the people who build it have the flexibility (in terms of time) to think about it, the more likely you'll be able to deliver something worth selling.
New contributor
This is a normal culture from my experience. I've seen a few businesses give this type of freedom with a value on accomplishments. But, I can't imagine getting to work at 11:30 or 12 every day. That's not normal from my experiences.
– Nathan Goings
13 hours ago
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13
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Depends on the company. Dev work in general can be done remotely - it isn't unheard of for people to start the day at home, then drive in to the office and finish the day there or vice versa. In the company I'm currently working in, this is actually quite common.
It isn't unusual for devs to have to work late - I've been in the office from 9am until 3am and back in again at 9am when there was a critical issue which needed to be fixed to get the company back on its feet. Similarly I've also worked 70+ hour weeks for fairly short stretches when something had gone terribly wrong.
Lastly, it could be that customers or team members could be operating in a different timezone and so the dev team is synching with those working hours - for instance I'm in Europe and work with people in both India and the US. The Americans are in early, and the Indians are in late so we can have a team meeting together.
The above can lead to management taking a more relaxed attitude to hours in office.
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12
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Developers tend to prefer to come in late and work late. We tend to be an independent, introverted bunch. Things that a normal person would prefer to do face-to-face, we often prefer to do via email.
Personally, I have found that if I get in to the office mid-morning, I do what interaction is necessary (meetings, dealing with email, etc.) before I eat lunch and then get down to the actual work by getting into deep hack. Much of my best work has been done well after 5 when the office is quiet.
It often starts unintentionally. When you become very absorbed in a problem and suddenly look up from your computer to find that it's 10PM, you're not terribly motivated to be in the office early the next morning. You get to work later and find yourself still at the office at 10PM again the next night.
Managers accept this from developers who deliver the goods. You can get a measure of how good a developer is by how flexible his schedule is.
The Tao of Programming has an illustrative passage:
A manager went to his programmers and told them: ``As regards to your work hours: you are going to have to come in at nine in the morning and leave at five in the afternoon.'' At this, all of them became angry and several resigned on the spot.
So the manager said: ``All right, in that case you may set your own working hours, as long as you finish your projects on schedule.'' The programmers, now satisfied, began to come in at noon and work to the wee hours of the morning.
The Tao of Programming 6.4
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The answers above are excellent. I am just adding my own observationnal experience.
This tendency is not only found in the software industry. When working temporarilly in an industrial company (metal coating), the technicians in charge of production chains (who were basically self-reliant) came in at 5-6AM and left in the early afternoon if all went well.
The main points for why this arrangement worked are:
- They were always there for at least some of the normal office hours.
- They were output oriented, although there was a system of punching in and out.
- There was enough direct communication so that everything ran smoothly (just 1 small site)
New contributor
Interesting comparison
– ThePassenger
yesterday
What answers? Please link to them sine the order of answers is random.
– Kyslik
22 hours ago
When I worked with computer games we typically came in at 10 and worked til 7pm.
– vikingsteve
20 hours ago
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up vote
5
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Also may depend on the local.
For example, in the Los Angeles, CA city, traffic is horrendous. Developers came in anywhere from 6:00 a.m. to Noon; to avoid the traffic.
I remember the manager calling all of us to a meeting and basically said he didn't mind us coming in at different times, but wanted to know a time when we would all be in so he could schedule meetings.
1
Doesn't even need to be LA. In a small badly designed city like Helsinki, I've often noticed that it doesn't matter whether you leave for work at 7:30 or 8:30. You often end up arriving to the office around the same time :D
– Juha Untinen
8 hours ago
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up vote
2
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[Some teams]
arrive between 9:30am and 10am.
[other teams]
arrive between 11:30 and 12pm
The constraint in both cases is "30 minutes". All teams obey precisely same constraint.
Do dev teams put less constraints on themselves or have they less constraints in terms of work hours?
The example you've brought proves they don't.
add a comment |
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2
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As a dev myself, if I can't think, I can't code. Sleep is vital; being "on time" could mean wasting a work day. Some devs can show up at 7; I wake up at 5; it depends on many things. The question should be whether they work late in order to finish and if they get the work done on time.
Also, about your request for "study on this managerial issue", this may relate to the academic topic "Working with Talent"; search Google and Amazon.
And, thanks for asking about this, also everyone for great answers. Lots of good value here! This Question can help many, many people get along better
New contributor
@Agent_L I agree with you. I envy your 8 hours of sleep, though. I don't say that it must be later hours, only an explanation of why it might be.
– Jesse Steele
18 hours ago
2
@Agent_L – one of reasons why devs can be working into late hours is that they set a milestone "I want to finish this today". If you tried to program anything (or just create a few somewhat complex Excel formulas you never used before) you will find that many times it takes longer than planned. Devs face this regularly. 2 hours can become 5 and sometimes there is no time "tomorrow" to finish it. For such situations, night can serve as a buffer to catch up.
– miroxlav
15 hours ago
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9 Answers
9
active
oldest
votes
9 Answers
9
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
141
down vote
The main question is why they (or anyone) should be in the office at 9:30. Do you (or the customer) need to contact the devs in the morning?
Fixed schedules are mostly to make sure that people can be contacted or can meet each other and so closed groups only need to find a time that works for them.
I also don't think they have less constraints. The have just different constraints. You could also formulate your questions as "Why do devs have to stay so late in the evening when everyone is allowed to leave earlier"?
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Jane S♦
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
141
down vote
The main question is why they (or anyone) should be in the office at 9:30. Do you (or the customer) need to contact the devs in the morning?
Fixed schedules are mostly to make sure that people can be contacted or can meet each other and so closed groups only need to find a time that works for them.
I also don't think they have less constraints. The have just different constraints. You could also formulate your questions as "Why do devs have to stay so late in the evening when everyone is allowed to leave earlier"?
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Jane S♦
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
141
down vote
up vote
141
down vote
The main question is why they (or anyone) should be in the office at 9:30. Do you (or the customer) need to contact the devs in the morning?
Fixed schedules are mostly to make sure that people can be contacted or can meet each other and so closed groups only need to find a time that works for them.
I also don't think they have less constraints. The have just different constraints. You could also formulate your questions as "Why do devs have to stay so late in the evening when everyone is allowed to leave earlier"?
The main question is why they (or anyone) should be in the office at 9:30. Do you (or the customer) need to contact the devs in the morning?
Fixed schedules are mostly to make sure that people can be contacted or can meet each other and so closed groups only need to find a time that works for them.
I also don't think they have less constraints. The have just different constraints. You could also formulate your questions as "Why do devs have to stay so late in the evening when everyone is allowed to leave earlier"?
answered yesterday
FooBar
1,1031311
1,1031311
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Jane S♦
yesterday
add a comment |
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Jane S♦
yesterday
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Jane S♦
yesterday
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Jane S♦
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
56
down vote
Might be multiple factors, including:
- They work later in the evening.
- Development is creative and mentally exhausting work so efficiency typically start to go down somewhere around 4-6 hours. By having more time to rest they might actually be more effective by working fewer hours.
- If they get paid enough they might accept a pay cut to work less hours, getting more time to ... not work.
- Some devs (usually contractors) get paid for finishing their tasks on time. Why then stay in the office longer than necessary?
- In some circles this is part of the culture, I have definitely heard it from multiple people. Usually revolving around my points 2 and 3.
25
They could also be working remotely
– GPPK
yesterday
8
I would add: Working from home. I wake up everyday at 9, get online and reply to emails, chats, while having my breakfast and coffee. Then until 11:30, I go and sit on my office and do some work then leave whenever I feel like leaving, to then continue from home.
– Sandra K
yesterday
5
For 2: Bugs. When a developer is tired, they make mistakes. Mistakes that have consequences later on and more time has to be spent identifying and solving.
– afaulconbridge
yesterday
6
Or they may be managing or managed by an offshore resource. At times my work day has started at 5:00 am and at others at 2:00 pm.
– John Wu
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
56
down vote
Might be multiple factors, including:
- They work later in the evening.
- Development is creative and mentally exhausting work so efficiency typically start to go down somewhere around 4-6 hours. By having more time to rest they might actually be more effective by working fewer hours.
- If they get paid enough they might accept a pay cut to work less hours, getting more time to ... not work.
- Some devs (usually contractors) get paid for finishing their tasks on time. Why then stay in the office longer than necessary?
- In some circles this is part of the culture, I have definitely heard it from multiple people. Usually revolving around my points 2 and 3.
25
They could also be working remotely
– GPPK
yesterday
8
I would add: Working from home. I wake up everyday at 9, get online and reply to emails, chats, while having my breakfast and coffee. Then until 11:30, I go and sit on my office and do some work then leave whenever I feel like leaving, to then continue from home.
– Sandra K
yesterday
5
For 2: Bugs. When a developer is tired, they make mistakes. Mistakes that have consequences later on and more time has to be spent identifying and solving.
– afaulconbridge
yesterday
6
Or they may be managing or managed by an offshore resource. At times my work day has started at 5:00 am and at others at 2:00 pm.
– John Wu
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
56
down vote
up vote
56
down vote
Might be multiple factors, including:
- They work later in the evening.
- Development is creative and mentally exhausting work so efficiency typically start to go down somewhere around 4-6 hours. By having more time to rest they might actually be more effective by working fewer hours.
- If they get paid enough they might accept a pay cut to work less hours, getting more time to ... not work.
- Some devs (usually contractors) get paid for finishing their tasks on time. Why then stay in the office longer than necessary?
- In some circles this is part of the culture, I have definitely heard it from multiple people. Usually revolving around my points 2 and 3.
Might be multiple factors, including:
- They work later in the evening.
- Development is creative and mentally exhausting work so efficiency typically start to go down somewhere around 4-6 hours. By having more time to rest they might actually be more effective by working fewer hours.
- If they get paid enough they might accept a pay cut to work less hours, getting more time to ... not work.
- Some devs (usually contractors) get paid for finishing their tasks on time. Why then stay in the office longer than necessary?
- In some circles this is part of the culture, I have definitely heard it from multiple people. Usually revolving around my points 2 and 3.
answered yesterday
Emil Vikström
1,208311
1,208311
25
They could also be working remotely
– GPPK
yesterday
8
I would add: Working from home. I wake up everyday at 9, get online and reply to emails, chats, while having my breakfast and coffee. Then until 11:30, I go and sit on my office and do some work then leave whenever I feel like leaving, to then continue from home.
– Sandra K
yesterday
5
For 2: Bugs. When a developer is tired, they make mistakes. Mistakes that have consequences later on and more time has to be spent identifying and solving.
– afaulconbridge
yesterday
6
Or they may be managing or managed by an offshore resource. At times my work day has started at 5:00 am and at others at 2:00 pm.
– John Wu
yesterday
add a comment |
25
They could also be working remotely
– GPPK
yesterday
8
I would add: Working from home. I wake up everyday at 9, get online and reply to emails, chats, while having my breakfast and coffee. Then until 11:30, I go and sit on my office and do some work then leave whenever I feel like leaving, to then continue from home.
– Sandra K
yesterday
5
For 2: Bugs. When a developer is tired, they make mistakes. Mistakes that have consequences later on and more time has to be spent identifying and solving.
– afaulconbridge
yesterday
6
Or they may be managing or managed by an offshore resource. At times my work day has started at 5:00 am and at others at 2:00 pm.
– John Wu
yesterday
25
25
They could also be working remotely
– GPPK
yesterday
They could also be working remotely
– GPPK
yesterday
8
8
I would add: Working from home. I wake up everyday at 9, get online and reply to emails, chats, while having my breakfast and coffee. Then until 11:30, I go and sit on my office and do some work then leave whenever I feel like leaving, to then continue from home.
– Sandra K
yesterday
I would add: Working from home. I wake up everyday at 9, get online and reply to emails, chats, while having my breakfast and coffee. Then until 11:30, I go and sit on my office and do some work then leave whenever I feel like leaving, to then continue from home.
– Sandra K
yesterday
5
5
For 2: Bugs. When a developer is tired, they make mistakes. Mistakes that have consequences later on and more time has to be spent identifying and solving.
– afaulconbridge
yesterday
For 2: Bugs. When a developer is tired, they make mistakes. Mistakes that have consequences later on and more time has to be spent identifying and solving.
– afaulconbridge
yesterday
6
6
Or they may be managing or managed by an offshore resource. At times my work day has started at 5:00 am and at others at 2:00 pm.
– John Wu
yesterday
Or they may be managing or managed by an offshore resource. At times my work day has started at 5:00 am and at others at 2:00 pm.
– John Wu
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
29
down vote
My company is similar, we have a dev team that can show up between 7am and 10am and leave between 2pm and 6pm, roughly. Our CTO focuses on accomplished tasks not really hours worked. That's not to say hours don't matter, but the key metric revolved on product completion, not time spent on product. The time spent metrics are typically used to deciding how much more work we can take on as a firm. But outside that, we're expected to just do our work. The sales / marketing / management side of the office are in at more stable times because their jobs requires them to be in during business hours.
Keep in mind, sometimes developers need to "percolate" their solutions. When it looks like their doing nothing or if their not in, it doesn't mean the problem isn't being worked on. I can't tell you how many times I've worked through a problem while in the shower in the evening... But that's sort of the nature of the beast.
The point here, is the development position has a lot more flexibility because software construction allows for the flexibility. Also, because that's the case, it allows firms to offer flex hours which is always welcome. Since the knowledge economy is about autonomy, mastery and purpose. The more autonomy someone has in doing their work the better and since software is the product, then making sure the people who build it have the flexibility (in terms of time) to think about it, the more likely you'll be able to deliver something worth selling.
New contributor
This is a normal culture from my experience. I've seen a few businesses give this type of freedom with a value on accomplishments. But, I can't imagine getting to work at 11:30 or 12 every day. That's not normal from my experiences.
– Nathan Goings
13 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
29
down vote
My company is similar, we have a dev team that can show up between 7am and 10am and leave between 2pm and 6pm, roughly. Our CTO focuses on accomplished tasks not really hours worked. That's not to say hours don't matter, but the key metric revolved on product completion, not time spent on product. The time spent metrics are typically used to deciding how much more work we can take on as a firm. But outside that, we're expected to just do our work. The sales / marketing / management side of the office are in at more stable times because their jobs requires them to be in during business hours.
Keep in mind, sometimes developers need to "percolate" their solutions. When it looks like their doing nothing or if their not in, it doesn't mean the problem isn't being worked on. I can't tell you how many times I've worked through a problem while in the shower in the evening... But that's sort of the nature of the beast.
The point here, is the development position has a lot more flexibility because software construction allows for the flexibility. Also, because that's the case, it allows firms to offer flex hours which is always welcome. Since the knowledge economy is about autonomy, mastery and purpose. The more autonomy someone has in doing their work the better and since software is the product, then making sure the people who build it have the flexibility (in terms of time) to think about it, the more likely you'll be able to deliver something worth selling.
New contributor
This is a normal culture from my experience. I've seen a few businesses give this type of freedom with a value on accomplishments. But, I can't imagine getting to work at 11:30 or 12 every day. That's not normal from my experiences.
– Nathan Goings
13 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
29
down vote
up vote
29
down vote
My company is similar, we have a dev team that can show up between 7am and 10am and leave between 2pm and 6pm, roughly. Our CTO focuses on accomplished tasks not really hours worked. That's not to say hours don't matter, but the key metric revolved on product completion, not time spent on product. The time spent metrics are typically used to deciding how much more work we can take on as a firm. But outside that, we're expected to just do our work. The sales / marketing / management side of the office are in at more stable times because their jobs requires them to be in during business hours.
Keep in mind, sometimes developers need to "percolate" their solutions. When it looks like their doing nothing or if their not in, it doesn't mean the problem isn't being worked on. I can't tell you how many times I've worked through a problem while in the shower in the evening... But that's sort of the nature of the beast.
The point here, is the development position has a lot more flexibility because software construction allows for the flexibility. Also, because that's the case, it allows firms to offer flex hours which is always welcome. Since the knowledge economy is about autonomy, mastery and purpose. The more autonomy someone has in doing their work the better and since software is the product, then making sure the people who build it have the flexibility (in terms of time) to think about it, the more likely you'll be able to deliver something worth selling.
New contributor
My company is similar, we have a dev team that can show up between 7am and 10am and leave between 2pm and 6pm, roughly. Our CTO focuses on accomplished tasks not really hours worked. That's not to say hours don't matter, but the key metric revolved on product completion, not time spent on product. The time spent metrics are typically used to deciding how much more work we can take on as a firm. But outside that, we're expected to just do our work. The sales / marketing / management side of the office are in at more stable times because their jobs requires them to be in during business hours.
Keep in mind, sometimes developers need to "percolate" their solutions. When it looks like their doing nothing or if their not in, it doesn't mean the problem isn't being worked on. I can't tell you how many times I've worked through a problem while in the shower in the evening... But that's sort of the nature of the beast.
The point here, is the development position has a lot more flexibility because software construction allows for the flexibility. Also, because that's the case, it allows firms to offer flex hours which is always welcome. Since the knowledge economy is about autonomy, mastery and purpose. The more autonomy someone has in doing their work the better and since software is the product, then making sure the people who build it have the flexibility (in terms of time) to think about it, the more likely you'll be able to deliver something worth selling.
New contributor
New contributor
answered yesterday
ShinEmperor
1,13726
1,13726
New contributor
New contributor
This is a normal culture from my experience. I've seen a few businesses give this type of freedom with a value on accomplishments. But, I can't imagine getting to work at 11:30 or 12 every day. That's not normal from my experiences.
– Nathan Goings
13 hours ago
add a comment |
This is a normal culture from my experience. I've seen a few businesses give this type of freedom with a value on accomplishments. But, I can't imagine getting to work at 11:30 or 12 every day. That's not normal from my experiences.
– Nathan Goings
13 hours ago
This is a normal culture from my experience. I've seen a few businesses give this type of freedom with a value on accomplishments. But, I can't imagine getting to work at 11:30 or 12 every day. That's not normal from my experiences.
– Nathan Goings
13 hours ago
This is a normal culture from my experience. I've seen a few businesses give this type of freedom with a value on accomplishments. But, I can't imagine getting to work at 11:30 or 12 every day. That's not normal from my experiences.
– Nathan Goings
13 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
13
down vote
Depends on the company. Dev work in general can be done remotely - it isn't unheard of for people to start the day at home, then drive in to the office and finish the day there or vice versa. In the company I'm currently working in, this is actually quite common.
It isn't unusual for devs to have to work late - I've been in the office from 9am until 3am and back in again at 9am when there was a critical issue which needed to be fixed to get the company back on its feet. Similarly I've also worked 70+ hour weeks for fairly short stretches when something had gone terribly wrong.
Lastly, it could be that customers or team members could be operating in a different timezone and so the dev team is synching with those working hours - for instance I'm in Europe and work with people in both India and the US. The Americans are in early, and the Indians are in late so we can have a team meeting together.
The above can lead to management taking a more relaxed attitude to hours in office.
add a comment |
up vote
13
down vote
Depends on the company. Dev work in general can be done remotely - it isn't unheard of for people to start the day at home, then drive in to the office and finish the day there or vice versa. In the company I'm currently working in, this is actually quite common.
It isn't unusual for devs to have to work late - I've been in the office from 9am until 3am and back in again at 9am when there was a critical issue which needed to be fixed to get the company back on its feet. Similarly I've also worked 70+ hour weeks for fairly short stretches when something had gone terribly wrong.
Lastly, it could be that customers or team members could be operating in a different timezone and so the dev team is synching with those working hours - for instance I'm in Europe and work with people in both India and the US. The Americans are in early, and the Indians are in late so we can have a team meeting together.
The above can lead to management taking a more relaxed attitude to hours in office.
add a comment |
up vote
13
down vote
up vote
13
down vote
Depends on the company. Dev work in general can be done remotely - it isn't unheard of for people to start the day at home, then drive in to the office and finish the day there or vice versa. In the company I'm currently working in, this is actually quite common.
It isn't unusual for devs to have to work late - I've been in the office from 9am until 3am and back in again at 9am when there was a critical issue which needed to be fixed to get the company back on its feet. Similarly I've also worked 70+ hour weeks for fairly short stretches when something had gone terribly wrong.
Lastly, it could be that customers or team members could be operating in a different timezone and so the dev team is synching with those working hours - for instance I'm in Europe and work with people in both India and the US. The Americans are in early, and the Indians are in late so we can have a team meeting together.
The above can lead to management taking a more relaxed attitude to hours in office.
Depends on the company. Dev work in general can be done remotely - it isn't unheard of for people to start the day at home, then drive in to the office and finish the day there or vice versa. In the company I'm currently working in, this is actually quite common.
It isn't unusual for devs to have to work late - I've been in the office from 9am until 3am and back in again at 9am when there was a critical issue which needed to be fixed to get the company back on its feet. Similarly I've also worked 70+ hour weeks for fairly short stretches when something had gone terribly wrong.
Lastly, it could be that customers or team members could be operating in a different timezone and so the dev team is synching with those working hours - for instance I'm in Europe and work with people in both India and the US. The Americans are in early, and the Indians are in late so we can have a team meeting together.
The above can lead to management taking a more relaxed attitude to hours in office.
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
user1666620
8,62473230
8,62473230
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
12
down vote
Developers tend to prefer to come in late and work late. We tend to be an independent, introverted bunch. Things that a normal person would prefer to do face-to-face, we often prefer to do via email.
Personally, I have found that if I get in to the office mid-morning, I do what interaction is necessary (meetings, dealing with email, etc.) before I eat lunch and then get down to the actual work by getting into deep hack. Much of my best work has been done well after 5 when the office is quiet.
It often starts unintentionally. When you become very absorbed in a problem and suddenly look up from your computer to find that it's 10PM, you're not terribly motivated to be in the office early the next morning. You get to work later and find yourself still at the office at 10PM again the next night.
Managers accept this from developers who deliver the goods. You can get a measure of how good a developer is by how flexible his schedule is.
The Tao of Programming has an illustrative passage:
A manager went to his programmers and told them: ``As regards to your work hours: you are going to have to come in at nine in the morning and leave at five in the afternoon.'' At this, all of them became angry and several resigned on the spot.
So the manager said: ``All right, in that case you may set your own working hours, as long as you finish your projects on schedule.'' The programmers, now satisfied, began to come in at noon and work to the wee hours of the morning.
The Tao of Programming 6.4
New contributor
add a comment |
up vote
12
down vote
Developers tend to prefer to come in late and work late. We tend to be an independent, introverted bunch. Things that a normal person would prefer to do face-to-face, we often prefer to do via email.
Personally, I have found that if I get in to the office mid-morning, I do what interaction is necessary (meetings, dealing with email, etc.) before I eat lunch and then get down to the actual work by getting into deep hack. Much of my best work has been done well after 5 when the office is quiet.
It often starts unintentionally. When you become very absorbed in a problem and suddenly look up from your computer to find that it's 10PM, you're not terribly motivated to be in the office early the next morning. You get to work later and find yourself still at the office at 10PM again the next night.
Managers accept this from developers who deliver the goods. You can get a measure of how good a developer is by how flexible his schedule is.
The Tao of Programming has an illustrative passage:
A manager went to his programmers and told them: ``As regards to your work hours: you are going to have to come in at nine in the morning and leave at five in the afternoon.'' At this, all of them became angry and several resigned on the spot.
So the manager said: ``All right, in that case you may set your own working hours, as long as you finish your projects on schedule.'' The programmers, now satisfied, began to come in at noon and work to the wee hours of the morning.
The Tao of Programming 6.4
New contributor
add a comment |
up vote
12
down vote
up vote
12
down vote
Developers tend to prefer to come in late and work late. We tend to be an independent, introverted bunch. Things that a normal person would prefer to do face-to-face, we often prefer to do via email.
Personally, I have found that if I get in to the office mid-morning, I do what interaction is necessary (meetings, dealing with email, etc.) before I eat lunch and then get down to the actual work by getting into deep hack. Much of my best work has been done well after 5 when the office is quiet.
It often starts unintentionally. When you become very absorbed in a problem and suddenly look up from your computer to find that it's 10PM, you're not terribly motivated to be in the office early the next morning. You get to work later and find yourself still at the office at 10PM again the next night.
Managers accept this from developers who deliver the goods. You can get a measure of how good a developer is by how flexible his schedule is.
The Tao of Programming has an illustrative passage:
A manager went to his programmers and told them: ``As regards to your work hours: you are going to have to come in at nine in the morning and leave at five in the afternoon.'' At this, all of them became angry and several resigned on the spot.
So the manager said: ``All right, in that case you may set your own working hours, as long as you finish your projects on schedule.'' The programmers, now satisfied, began to come in at noon and work to the wee hours of the morning.
The Tao of Programming 6.4
New contributor
Developers tend to prefer to come in late and work late. We tend to be an independent, introverted bunch. Things that a normal person would prefer to do face-to-face, we often prefer to do via email.
Personally, I have found that if I get in to the office mid-morning, I do what interaction is necessary (meetings, dealing with email, etc.) before I eat lunch and then get down to the actual work by getting into deep hack. Much of my best work has been done well after 5 when the office is quiet.
It often starts unintentionally. When you become very absorbed in a problem and suddenly look up from your computer to find that it's 10PM, you're not terribly motivated to be in the office early the next morning. You get to work later and find yourself still at the office at 10PM again the next night.
Managers accept this from developers who deliver the goods. You can get a measure of how good a developer is by how flexible his schedule is.
The Tao of Programming has an illustrative passage:
A manager went to his programmers and told them: ``As regards to your work hours: you are going to have to come in at nine in the morning and leave at five in the afternoon.'' At this, all of them became angry and several resigned on the spot.
So the manager said: ``All right, in that case you may set your own working hours, as long as you finish your projects on schedule.'' The programmers, now satisfied, began to come in at noon and work to the wee hours of the morning.
The Tao of Programming 6.4
New contributor
New contributor
answered 15 hours ago
Rob K
2213
2213
New contributor
New contributor
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
5
down vote
The answers above are excellent. I am just adding my own observationnal experience.
This tendency is not only found in the software industry. When working temporarilly in an industrial company (metal coating), the technicians in charge of production chains (who were basically self-reliant) came in at 5-6AM and left in the early afternoon if all went well.
The main points for why this arrangement worked are:
- They were always there for at least some of the normal office hours.
- They were output oriented, although there was a system of punching in and out.
- There was enough direct communication so that everything ran smoothly (just 1 small site)
New contributor
Interesting comparison
– ThePassenger
yesterday
What answers? Please link to them sine the order of answers is random.
– Kyslik
22 hours ago
When I worked with computer games we typically came in at 10 and worked til 7pm.
– vikingsteve
20 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
5
down vote
The answers above are excellent. I am just adding my own observationnal experience.
This tendency is not only found in the software industry. When working temporarilly in an industrial company (metal coating), the technicians in charge of production chains (who were basically self-reliant) came in at 5-6AM and left in the early afternoon if all went well.
The main points for why this arrangement worked are:
- They were always there for at least some of the normal office hours.
- They were output oriented, although there was a system of punching in and out.
- There was enough direct communication so that everything ran smoothly (just 1 small site)
New contributor
Interesting comparison
– ThePassenger
yesterday
What answers? Please link to them sine the order of answers is random.
– Kyslik
22 hours ago
When I worked with computer games we typically came in at 10 and worked til 7pm.
– vikingsteve
20 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
5
down vote
up vote
5
down vote
The answers above are excellent. I am just adding my own observationnal experience.
This tendency is not only found in the software industry. When working temporarilly in an industrial company (metal coating), the technicians in charge of production chains (who were basically self-reliant) came in at 5-6AM and left in the early afternoon if all went well.
The main points for why this arrangement worked are:
- They were always there for at least some of the normal office hours.
- They were output oriented, although there was a system of punching in and out.
- There was enough direct communication so that everything ran smoothly (just 1 small site)
New contributor
The answers above are excellent. I am just adding my own observationnal experience.
This tendency is not only found in the software industry. When working temporarilly in an industrial company (metal coating), the technicians in charge of production chains (who were basically self-reliant) came in at 5-6AM and left in the early afternoon if all went well.
The main points for why this arrangement worked are:
- They were always there for at least some of the normal office hours.
- They were output oriented, although there was a system of punching in and out.
- There was enough direct communication so that everything ran smoothly (just 1 small site)
New contributor
New contributor
answered yesterday
BuggyMelon
511
511
New contributor
New contributor
Interesting comparison
– ThePassenger
yesterday
What answers? Please link to them sine the order of answers is random.
– Kyslik
22 hours ago
When I worked with computer games we typically came in at 10 and worked til 7pm.
– vikingsteve
20 hours ago
add a comment |
Interesting comparison
– ThePassenger
yesterday
What answers? Please link to them sine the order of answers is random.
– Kyslik
22 hours ago
When I worked with computer games we typically came in at 10 and worked til 7pm.
– vikingsteve
20 hours ago
Interesting comparison
– ThePassenger
yesterday
Interesting comparison
– ThePassenger
yesterday
What answers? Please link to them sine the order of answers is random.
– Kyslik
22 hours ago
What answers? Please link to them sine the order of answers is random.
– Kyslik
22 hours ago
When I worked with computer games we typically came in at 10 and worked til 7pm.
– vikingsteve
20 hours ago
When I worked with computer games we typically came in at 10 and worked til 7pm.
– vikingsteve
20 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
5
down vote
Also may depend on the local.
For example, in the Los Angeles, CA city, traffic is horrendous. Developers came in anywhere from 6:00 a.m. to Noon; to avoid the traffic.
I remember the manager calling all of us to a meeting and basically said he didn't mind us coming in at different times, but wanted to know a time when we would all be in so he could schedule meetings.
1
Doesn't even need to be LA. In a small badly designed city like Helsinki, I've often noticed that it doesn't matter whether you leave for work at 7:30 or 8:30. You often end up arriving to the office around the same time :D
– Juha Untinen
8 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
5
down vote
Also may depend on the local.
For example, in the Los Angeles, CA city, traffic is horrendous. Developers came in anywhere from 6:00 a.m. to Noon; to avoid the traffic.
I remember the manager calling all of us to a meeting and basically said he didn't mind us coming in at different times, but wanted to know a time when we would all be in so he could schedule meetings.
1
Doesn't even need to be LA. In a small badly designed city like Helsinki, I've often noticed that it doesn't matter whether you leave for work at 7:30 or 8:30. You often end up arriving to the office around the same time :D
– Juha Untinen
8 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
5
down vote
up vote
5
down vote
Also may depend on the local.
For example, in the Los Angeles, CA city, traffic is horrendous. Developers came in anywhere from 6:00 a.m. to Noon; to avoid the traffic.
I remember the manager calling all of us to a meeting and basically said he didn't mind us coming in at different times, but wanted to know a time when we would all be in so he could schedule meetings.
Also may depend on the local.
For example, in the Los Angeles, CA city, traffic is horrendous. Developers came in anywhere from 6:00 a.m. to Noon; to avoid the traffic.
I remember the manager calling all of us to a meeting and basically said he didn't mind us coming in at different times, but wanted to know a time when we would all be in so he could schedule meetings.
answered yesterday
Thomas Matthews
45724
45724
1
Doesn't even need to be LA. In a small badly designed city like Helsinki, I've often noticed that it doesn't matter whether you leave for work at 7:30 or 8:30. You often end up arriving to the office around the same time :D
– Juha Untinen
8 hours ago
add a comment |
1
Doesn't even need to be LA. In a small badly designed city like Helsinki, I've often noticed that it doesn't matter whether you leave for work at 7:30 or 8:30. You often end up arriving to the office around the same time :D
– Juha Untinen
8 hours ago
1
1
Doesn't even need to be LA. In a small badly designed city like Helsinki, I've often noticed that it doesn't matter whether you leave for work at 7:30 or 8:30. You often end up arriving to the office around the same time :D
– Juha Untinen
8 hours ago
Doesn't even need to be LA. In a small badly designed city like Helsinki, I've often noticed that it doesn't matter whether you leave for work at 7:30 or 8:30. You often end up arriving to the office around the same time :D
– Juha Untinen
8 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
[Some teams]
arrive between 9:30am and 10am.
[other teams]
arrive between 11:30 and 12pm
The constraint in both cases is "30 minutes". All teams obey precisely same constraint.
Do dev teams put less constraints on themselves or have they less constraints in terms of work hours?
The example you've brought proves they don't.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
[Some teams]
arrive between 9:30am and 10am.
[other teams]
arrive between 11:30 and 12pm
The constraint in both cases is "30 minutes". All teams obey precisely same constraint.
Do dev teams put less constraints on themselves or have they less constraints in terms of work hours?
The example you've brought proves they don't.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
[Some teams]
arrive between 9:30am and 10am.
[other teams]
arrive between 11:30 and 12pm
The constraint in both cases is "30 minutes". All teams obey precisely same constraint.
Do dev teams put less constraints on themselves or have they less constraints in terms of work hours?
The example you've brought proves they don't.
[Some teams]
arrive between 9:30am and 10am.
[other teams]
arrive between 11:30 and 12pm
The constraint in both cases is "30 minutes". All teams obey precisely same constraint.
Do dev teams put less constraints on themselves or have they less constraints in terms of work hours?
The example you've brought proves they don't.
answered 18 hours ago
Agent_L
4,02421317
4,02421317
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
As a dev myself, if I can't think, I can't code. Sleep is vital; being "on time" could mean wasting a work day. Some devs can show up at 7; I wake up at 5; it depends on many things. The question should be whether they work late in order to finish and if they get the work done on time.
Also, about your request for "study on this managerial issue", this may relate to the academic topic "Working with Talent"; search Google and Amazon.
And, thanks for asking about this, also everyone for great answers. Lots of good value here! This Question can help many, many people get along better
New contributor
@Agent_L I agree with you. I envy your 8 hours of sleep, though. I don't say that it must be later hours, only an explanation of why it might be.
– Jesse Steele
18 hours ago
2
@Agent_L – one of reasons why devs can be working into late hours is that they set a milestone "I want to finish this today". If you tried to program anything (or just create a few somewhat complex Excel formulas you never used before) you will find that many times it takes longer than planned. Devs face this regularly. 2 hours can become 5 and sometimes there is no time "tomorrow" to finish it. For such situations, night can serve as a buffer to catch up.
– miroxlav
15 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
As a dev myself, if I can't think, I can't code. Sleep is vital; being "on time" could mean wasting a work day. Some devs can show up at 7; I wake up at 5; it depends on many things. The question should be whether they work late in order to finish and if they get the work done on time.
Also, about your request for "study on this managerial issue", this may relate to the academic topic "Working with Talent"; search Google and Amazon.
And, thanks for asking about this, also everyone for great answers. Lots of good value here! This Question can help many, many people get along better
New contributor
@Agent_L I agree with you. I envy your 8 hours of sleep, though. I don't say that it must be later hours, only an explanation of why it might be.
– Jesse Steele
18 hours ago
2
@Agent_L – one of reasons why devs can be working into late hours is that they set a milestone "I want to finish this today". If you tried to program anything (or just create a few somewhat complex Excel formulas you never used before) you will find that many times it takes longer than planned. Devs face this regularly. 2 hours can become 5 and sometimes there is no time "tomorrow" to finish it. For such situations, night can serve as a buffer to catch up.
– miroxlav
15 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
As a dev myself, if I can't think, I can't code. Sleep is vital; being "on time" could mean wasting a work day. Some devs can show up at 7; I wake up at 5; it depends on many things. The question should be whether they work late in order to finish and if they get the work done on time.
Also, about your request for "study on this managerial issue", this may relate to the academic topic "Working with Talent"; search Google and Amazon.
And, thanks for asking about this, also everyone for great answers. Lots of good value here! This Question can help many, many people get along better
New contributor
As a dev myself, if I can't think, I can't code. Sleep is vital; being "on time" could mean wasting a work day. Some devs can show up at 7; I wake up at 5; it depends on many things. The question should be whether they work late in order to finish and if they get the work done on time.
Also, about your request for "study on this managerial issue", this may relate to the academic topic "Working with Talent"; search Google and Amazon.
And, thanks for asking about this, also everyone for great answers. Lots of good value here! This Question can help many, many people get along better
New contributor
edited 9 hours ago
New contributor
answered 18 hours ago
Jesse Steele
1295
1295
New contributor
New contributor
@Agent_L I agree with you. I envy your 8 hours of sleep, though. I don't say that it must be later hours, only an explanation of why it might be.
– Jesse Steele
18 hours ago
2
@Agent_L – one of reasons why devs can be working into late hours is that they set a milestone "I want to finish this today". If you tried to program anything (or just create a few somewhat complex Excel formulas you never used before) you will find that many times it takes longer than planned. Devs face this regularly. 2 hours can become 5 and sometimes there is no time "tomorrow" to finish it. For such situations, night can serve as a buffer to catch up.
– miroxlav
15 hours ago
add a comment |
@Agent_L I agree with you. I envy your 8 hours of sleep, though. I don't say that it must be later hours, only an explanation of why it might be.
– Jesse Steele
18 hours ago
2
@Agent_L – one of reasons why devs can be working into late hours is that they set a milestone "I want to finish this today". If you tried to program anything (or just create a few somewhat complex Excel formulas you never used before) you will find that many times it takes longer than planned. Devs face this regularly. 2 hours can become 5 and sometimes there is no time "tomorrow" to finish it. For such situations, night can serve as a buffer to catch up.
– miroxlav
15 hours ago
@Agent_L I agree with you. I envy your 8 hours of sleep, though. I don't say that it must be later hours, only an explanation of why it might be.
– Jesse Steele
18 hours ago
@Agent_L I agree with you. I envy your 8 hours of sleep, though. I don't say that it must be later hours, only an explanation of why it might be.
– Jesse Steele
18 hours ago
2
2
@Agent_L – one of reasons why devs can be working into late hours is that they set a milestone "I want to finish this today". If you tried to program anything (or just create a few somewhat complex Excel formulas you never used before) you will find that many times it takes longer than planned. Devs face this regularly. 2 hours can become 5 and sometimes there is no time "tomorrow" to finish it. For such situations, night can serve as a buffer to catch up.
– miroxlav
15 hours ago
@Agent_L – one of reasons why devs can be working into late hours is that they set a milestone "I want to finish this today". If you tried to program anything (or just create a few somewhat complex Excel formulas you never used before) you will find that many times it takes longer than planned. Devs face this regularly. 2 hours can become 5 and sometimes there is no time "tomorrow" to finish it. For such situations, night can serve as a buffer to catch up.
– miroxlav
15 hours ago
add a comment |
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– Jane S♦
yesterday
You mentioned this as a "managerial issue", but haven't said what the issue is. Is it that they have been asked to come in earlier but do not? Is it that two teams work different "shifts" so don't have much time to communicate? A team coming in later in the day in and of itself is not an issue. I don't mean that to say teams should be allowed to come in whenever, I mean that to say as your question is worded right now it makes it seem like there is some issue specifically that you are trying to deal with but you didn't say what it is.
– Captain Man
9 hours ago