Can the same recursion pattern define several sequences of primes?












3












$begingroup$


First, some definitions:



Let $A$ be a shorthand for an infinite sequence
$( a(1), a(2), a(3), dots )$
of positive integers, likewise $B$ is an infinite sequence of positive integers
$( b(1), b(2), b(3) , dots)$,
and C is an increasing infinite sequence of positive integers
$( c(0), c(1), c(2), c(3), dots)$. Call $c(0)$ the initial value of $C$.



We say that the pair $(A,B)$ is a recursion pattern for $C$ if for each
positive integer n we have
$c(n) = a(n) * c(n-1) + b(n)$. Given a recursion pattern $(A,B)$, and an
initial value for $C$, we can reconstruct all the sequence $C$.



Clearly, for any increasing infinite sequence $C$ we can find a pair $(A,B)$
which is a recursion pattern for $C$, simply by taking all the $a(n)$ to
be equal to $1$, and defining the $b(n)$ as required. If the sequence $C$ is
increasing quickly, there will be many pairs $(A,B)$ which will be
recursion patterns for $C$.



In particular, for any increasing sequence of primes, we can find
recursion patterns, many of them if the sequence grows quickly.



Now the question: can a pair $(A,B)$ be a recursion pattern for more than
one sequence of primes? In other words, given $A$ and $B$ as a recursion
pattern, is it possible there is more than one initial value for $c(0)$
which will lead to an infinite sequence of primes?



Comments:
If the answer is yes, and we can prove that, I would expect the proof
to be quite difficult. Maybe a conditional proof would be possible.
On the other hand, it may be elementary to show that the answer is no.
This question was written up by Moshe Newman.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    I think a "no" answer would be more difficult than you expect; I think this could be seen as one weakening of the twin prime conjecture - if the twin prime conjecture is true, then set $A$ to be $(1, 1, dots)$, set $B$ to be the sequential differences of the larger of the twin primes, set $c(0) = 3, c'(0) = 5$. So a "no" would in fact also be a disproof of the twin prime conjecture.
    $endgroup$
    – user44191
    2 hours ago
















3












$begingroup$


First, some definitions:



Let $A$ be a shorthand for an infinite sequence
$( a(1), a(2), a(3), dots )$
of positive integers, likewise $B$ is an infinite sequence of positive integers
$( b(1), b(2), b(3) , dots)$,
and C is an increasing infinite sequence of positive integers
$( c(0), c(1), c(2), c(3), dots)$. Call $c(0)$ the initial value of $C$.



We say that the pair $(A,B)$ is a recursion pattern for $C$ if for each
positive integer n we have
$c(n) = a(n) * c(n-1) + b(n)$. Given a recursion pattern $(A,B)$, and an
initial value for $C$, we can reconstruct all the sequence $C$.



Clearly, for any increasing infinite sequence $C$ we can find a pair $(A,B)$
which is a recursion pattern for $C$, simply by taking all the $a(n)$ to
be equal to $1$, and defining the $b(n)$ as required. If the sequence $C$ is
increasing quickly, there will be many pairs $(A,B)$ which will be
recursion patterns for $C$.



In particular, for any increasing sequence of primes, we can find
recursion patterns, many of them if the sequence grows quickly.



Now the question: can a pair $(A,B)$ be a recursion pattern for more than
one sequence of primes? In other words, given $A$ and $B$ as a recursion
pattern, is it possible there is more than one initial value for $c(0)$
which will lead to an infinite sequence of primes?



Comments:
If the answer is yes, and we can prove that, I would expect the proof
to be quite difficult. Maybe a conditional proof would be possible.
On the other hand, it may be elementary to show that the answer is no.
This question was written up by Moshe Newman.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    I think a "no" answer would be more difficult than you expect; I think this could be seen as one weakening of the twin prime conjecture - if the twin prime conjecture is true, then set $A$ to be $(1, 1, dots)$, set $B$ to be the sequential differences of the larger of the twin primes, set $c(0) = 3, c'(0) = 5$. So a "no" would in fact also be a disproof of the twin prime conjecture.
    $endgroup$
    – user44191
    2 hours ago














3












3








3





$begingroup$


First, some definitions:



Let $A$ be a shorthand for an infinite sequence
$( a(1), a(2), a(3), dots )$
of positive integers, likewise $B$ is an infinite sequence of positive integers
$( b(1), b(2), b(3) , dots)$,
and C is an increasing infinite sequence of positive integers
$( c(0), c(1), c(2), c(3), dots)$. Call $c(0)$ the initial value of $C$.



We say that the pair $(A,B)$ is a recursion pattern for $C$ if for each
positive integer n we have
$c(n) = a(n) * c(n-1) + b(n)$. Given a recursion pattern $(A,B)$, and an
initial value for $C$, we can reconstruct all the sequence $C$.



Clearly, for any increasing infinite sequence $C$ we can find a pair $(A,B)$
which is a recursion pattern for $C$, simply by taking all the $a(n)$ to
be equal to $1$, and defining the $b(n)$ as required. If the sequence $C$ is
increasing quickly, there will be many pairs $(A,B)$ which will be
recursion patterns for $C$.



In particular, for any increasing sequence of primes, we can find
recursion patterns, many of them if the sequence grows quickly.



Now the question: can a pair $(A,B)$ be a recursion pattern for more than
one sequence of primes? In other words, given $A$ and $B$ as a recursion
pattern, is it possible there is more than one initial value for $c(0)$
which will lead to an infinite sequence of primes?



Comments:
If the answer is yes, and we can prove that, I would expect the proof
to be quite difficult. Maybe a conditional proof would be possible.
On the other hand, it may be elementary to show that the answer is no.
This question was written up by Moshe Newman.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




First, some definitions:



Let $A$ be a shorthand for an infinite sequence
$( a(1), a(2), a(3), dots )$
of positive integers, likewise $B$ is an infinite sequence of positive integers
$( b(1), b(2), b(3) , dots)$,
and C is an increasing infinite sequence of positive integers
$( c(0), c(1), c(2), c(3), dots)$. Call $c(0)$ the initial value of $C$.



We say that the pair $(A,B)$ is a recursion pattern for $C$ if for each
positive integer n we have
$c(n) = a(n) * c(n-1) + b(n)$. Given a recursion pattern $(A,B)$, and an
initial value for $C$, we can reconstruct all the sequence $C$.



Clearly, for any increasing infinite sequence $C$ we can find a pair $(A,B)$
which is a recursion pattern for $C$, simply by taking all the $a(n)$ to
be equal to $1$, and defining the $b(n)$ as required. If the sequence $C$ is
increasing quickly, there will be many pairs $(A,B)$ which will be
recursion patterns for $C$.



In particular, for any increasing sequence of primes, we can find
recursion patterns, many of them if the sequence grows quickly.



Now the question: can a pair $(A,B)$ be a recursion pattern for more than
one sequence of primes? In other words, given $A$ and $B$ as a recursion
pattern, is it possible there is more than one initial value for $c(0)$
which will lead to an infinite sequence of primes?



Comments:
If the answer is yes, and we can prove that, I would expect the proof
to be quite difficult. Maybe a conditional proof would be possible.
On the other hand, it may be elementary to show that the answer is no.
This question was written up by Moshe Newman.







nt.number-theory






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited 46 mins ago









user44191

2,9581427




2,9581427










asked 2 hours ago









David S. NewmanDavid S. Newman

909520




909520












  • $begingroup$
    I think a "no" answer would be more difficult than you expect; I think this could be seen as one weakening of the twin prime conjecture - if the twin prime conjecture is true, then set $A$ to be $(1, 1, dots)$, set $B$ to be the sequential differences of the larger of the twin primes, set $c(0) = 3, c'(0) = 5$. So a "no" would in fact also be a disproof of the twin prime conjecture.
    $endgroup$
    – user44191
    2 hours ago


















  • $begingroup$
    I think a "no" answer would be more difficult than you expect; I think this could be seen as one weakening of the twin prime conjecture - if the twin prime conjecture is true, then set $A$ to be $(1, 1, dots)$, set $B$ to be the sequential differences of the larger of the twin primes, set $c(0) = 3, c'(0) = 5$. So a "no" would in fact also be a disproof of the twin prime conjecture.
    $endgroup$
    – user44191
    2 hours ago
















$begingroup$
I think a "no" answer would be more difficult than you expect; I think this could be seen as one weakening of the twin prime conjecture - if the twin prime conjecture is true, then set $A$ to be $(1, 1, dots)$, set $B$ to be the sequential differences of the larger of the twin primes, set $c(0) = 3, c'(0) = 5$. So a "no" would in fact also be a disproof of the twin prime conjecture.
$endgroup$
– user44191
2 hours ago




$begingroup$
I think a "no" answer would be more difficult than you expect; I think this could be seen as one weakening of the twin prime conjecture - if the twin prime conjecture is true, then set $A$ to be $(1, 1, dots)$, set $B$ to be the sequential differences of the larger of the twin primes, set $c(0) = 3, c'(0) = 5$. So a "no" would in fact also be a disproof of the twin prime conjecture.
$endgroup$
– user44191
2 hours ago










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$begingroup$

The answer is yes, there are "recursion patterns" which result in sequences of primes for more than one choice of $c(0)$. In fact, if you are given any two "starting points", it is possible to find such sequences. The proof comes from the pigeonhole principle.



Start with $c(0), c'(0)$. These are two prime numbers with difference $d(1) := c'(0) - c(0)$. Then as the set of prime numbers is infinite, there is some pair $p_1 < p'_1$ such that $p_1 equiv p'_1 (text{mod }d)$. Let $a(1) = frac{p'_1 - p_1}{d(1)}$; let $b(1) = p_1 - a(1) c(0)$. (Note: I've slightly cheated here, and will explain the cheat at the end). Then $c(1) = a(1) c(0) + b(1) = a(1) c(0) + p_1 - a(1) c(0) = p_1$, while $c'(1) = a(1) c(0) + b(1) = frac{p'_1 - p_1}{c'(0) - c(0)} c'(0) + p_1 - frac{p'_1 - p_1}{c'(0) - c(0)} c(0) = p'_1$, as desired.



This is a pattern that can be repeated in the obvious way. We therefore have a recursion pattern that results in sequences of primes for multiple "starts".



Now for the cheat: there's no reason so far why this would make $b(i)$ positive. I don't have a completely elementary reason for that, but the prime number theorem should be enough to guarantee it. Essentially, the $n$th prime number doesn't grow "quickly enough" to escape such pairs.






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    $begingroup$

    The answer is yes, there are "recursion patterns" which result in sequences of primes for more than one choice of $c(0)$. In fact, if you are given any two "starting points", it is possible to find such sequences. The proof comes from the pigeonhole principle.



    Start with $c(0), c'(0)$. These are two prime numbers with difference $d(1) := c'(0) - c(0)$. Then as the set of prime numbers is infinite, there is some pair $p_1 < p'_1$ such that $p_1 equiv p'_1 (text{mod }d)$. Let $a(1) = frac{p'_1 - p_1}{d(1)}$; let $b(1) = p_1 - a(1) c(0)$. (Note: I've slightly cheated here, and will explain the cheat at the end). Then $c(1) = a(1) c(0) + b(1) = a(1) c(0) + p_1 - a(1) c(0) = p_1$, while $c'(1) = a(1) c(0) + b(1) = frac{p'_1 - p_1}{c'(0) - c(0)} c'(0) + p_1 - frac{p'_1 - p_1}{c'(0) - c(0)} c(0) = p'_1$, as desired.



    This is a pattern that can be repeated in the obvious way. We therefore have a recursion pattern that results in sequences of primes for multiple "starts".



    Now for the cheat: there's no reason so far why this would make $b(i)$ positive. I don't have a completely elementary reason for that, but the prime number theorem should be enough to guarantee it. Essentially, the $n$th prime number doesn't grow "quickly enough" to escape such pairs.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$


















      3












      $begingroup$

      The answer is yes, there are "recursion patterns" which result in sequences of primes for more than one choice of $c(0)$. In fact, if you are given any two "starting points", it is possible to find such sequences. The proof comes from the pigeonhole principle.



      Start with $c(0), c'(0)$. These are two prime numbers with difference $d(1) := c'(0) - c(0)$. Then as the set of prime numbers is infinite, there is some pair $p_1 < p'_1$ such that $p_1 equiv p'_1 (text{mod }d)$. Let $a(1) = frac{p'_1 - p_1}{d(1)}$; let $b(1) = p_1 - a(1) c(0)$. (Note: I've slightly cheated here, and will explain the cheat at the end). Then $c(1) = a(1) c(0) + b(1) = a(1) c(0) + p_1 - a(1) c(0) = p_1$, while $c'(1) = a(1) c(0) + b(1) = frac{p'_1 - p_1}{c'(0) - c(0)} c'(0) + p_1 - frac{p'_1 - p_1}{c'(0) - c(0)} c(0) = p'_1$, as desired.



      This is a pattern that can be repeated in the obvious way. We therefore have a recursion pattern that results in sequences of primes for multiple "starts".



      Now for the cheat: there's no reason so far why this would make $b(i)$ positive. I don't have a completely elementary reason for that, but the prime number theorem should be enough to guarantee it. Essentially, the $n$th prime number doesn't grow "quickly enough" to escape such pairs.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$
















        3












        3








        3





        $begingroup$

        The answer is yes, there are "recursion patterns" which result in sequences of primes for more than one choice of $c(0)$. In fact, if you are given any two "starting points", it is possible to find such sequences. The proof comes from the pigeonhole principle.



        Start with $c(0), c'(0)$. These are two prime numbers with difference $d(1) := c'(0) - c(0)$. Then as the set of prime numbers is infinite, there is some pair $p_1 < p'_1$ such that $p_1 equiv p'_1 (text{mod }d)$. Let $a(1) = frac{p'_1 - p_1}{d(1)}$; let $b(1) = p_1 - a(1) c(0)$. (Note: I've slightly cheated here, and will explain the cheat at the end). Then $c(1) = a(1) c(0) + b(1) = a(1) c(0) + p_1 - a(1) c(0) = p_1$, while $c'(1) = a(1) c(0) + b(1) = frac{p'_1 - p_1}{c'(0) - c(0)} c'(0) + p_1 - frac{p'_1 - p_1}{c'(0) - c(0)} c(0) = p'_1$, as desired.



        This is a pattern that can be repeated in the obvious way. We therefore have a recursion pattern that results in sequences of primes for multiple "starts".



        Now for the cheat: there's no reason so far why this would make $b(i)$ positive. I don't have a completely elementary reason for that, but the prime number theorem should be enough to guarantee it. Essentially, the $n$th prime number doesn't grow "quickly enough" to escape such pairs.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$



        The answer is yes, there are "recursion patterns" which result in sequences of primes for more than one choice of $c(0)$. In fact, if you are given any two "starting points", it is possible to find such sequences. The proof comes from the pigeonhole principle.



        Start with $c(0), c'(0)$. These are two prime numbers with difference $d(1) := c'(0) - c(0)$. Then as the set of prime numbers is infinite, there is some pair $p_1 < p'_1$ such that $p_1 equiv p'_1 (text{mod }d)$. Let $a(1) = frac{p'_1 - p_1}{d(1)}$; let $b(1) = p_1 - a(1) c(0)$. (Note: I've slightly cheated here, and will explain the cheat at the end). Then $c(1) = a(1) c(0) + b(1) = a(1) c(0) + p_1 - a(1) c(0) = p_1$, while $c'(1) = a(1) c(0) + b(1) = frac{p'_1 - p_1}{c'(0) - c(0)} c'(0) + p_1 - frac{p'_1 - p_1}{c'(0) - c(0)} c(0) = p'_1$, as desired.



        This is a pattern that can be repeated in the obvious way. We therefore have a recursion pattern that results in sequences of primes for multiple "starts".



        Now for the cheat: there's no reason so far why this would make $b(i)$ positive. I don't have a completely elementary reason for that, but the prime number theorem should be enough to guarantee it. Essentially, the $n$th prime number doesn't grow "quickly enough" to escape such pairs.







        share|cite|improve this answer












        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer










        answered 2 hours ago









        user44191user44191

        2,9581427




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