Can I use an instant speed Act of Treason effect to take a Seedborn Muse and use its ability?












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Can I trigger an instant speed “Act of Treason” type effect (like with a Vedalken Orrery or Jeering Instigator, for example) to grab a Seedborn Muse before an opponent’s untap and untap all my permanents?










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    1















    Can I trigger an instant speed “Act of Treason” type effect (like with a Vedalken Orrery or Jeering Instigator, for example) to grab a Seedborn Muse before an opponent’s untap and untap all my permanents?










    share|improve this question









    New contributor




    Grenzo Winzo is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.























      1












      1








      1








      Can I trigger an instant speed “Act of Treason” type effect (like with a Vedalken Orrery or Jeering Instigator, for example) to grab a Seedborn Muse before an opponent’s untap and untap all my permanents?










      share|improve this question









      New contributor




      Grenzo Winzo is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.












      Can I trigger an instant speed “Act of Treason” type effect (like with a Vedalken Orrery or Jeering Instigator, for example) to grab a Seedborn Muse before an opponent’s untap and untap all my permanents?







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      Grenzo Winzo is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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      edited 1 hour ago









      doppelgreener

      15.6k854120




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      asked 2 hours ago









      Grenzo WinzoGrenzo Winzo

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          2 Answers
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          Well, obviously there will be points in the game prior to your opponent's untap step. For instance, on the turn before your opponents turn, you can grab the Seedborn Muse during the ending phase. If that's your turn, you can announce after your second main phase "I am casting Act of Treason using Vedalken Orrery's ability". Or, if you're in a multiplayer game, if that's another player's turn, then when that other player announces the end of their turn, you can say the same; when a player says they're ending their turn, they're just passing priority, and other players have the chance to take actions before the turn actually ends.



          However, there are two problems.



          First, Act of Treason only lasts until end of turn. If you do this during the end step you will pass Seedborn Muse back more or less immediately after it. You will not have Seedborn Muse by the time the next turn starts and it will be back under the control of whoever had it last.



          Second, once the untap phase begins, it's too late to do anything to affect what happens in the untap phase. Even when something is "instant", you still have to wait until you receive priority, and




          No player receives priority during this step so spells or abilities cannot be played. — Rules for the Beginning Phase




          You first receive priority during your Upkeep, by which time Seedborn Muse has already had its effect and it is too late for gaining control of it to do much for you.






          share|improve this answer


























          • You're correct that you can cast whatever spell on a different turn, before Seedborn Muse's ability applies, but I think you should address the fact that if you do so with an Act of Treason-type effect, the control-change ability will unavoidably end during that same turn. Also, I don't think you understood what the card Vedalken Orrery does.

            – murgatroid99
            1 hour ago











          • I have updated this to (a) accurately reflect the interaction with Vedalken Orrery, since it is not an activated ability and therefore saying it is activated would be incorrect, (b) point out the end of turn issue with Act of Treason.

            – doppelgreener
            1 hour ago



















          1














          There are ways to take control of a Seedborn Muse and use its ability to untap your permanents, but an effect that only lasts until end of turn like on Act of Treason won't help you there.



          Seedborn Muse's ability happens during the untap step, the very first thing in a turn. You have no opportunity to act in that same turn before that happens. And if you use an effect like on Act of Treason or Jeering Instigator to take control of the Seedborn Muse on a previous turn, that effect giving you control of it will end during that same turn, so it will be back under its owner's control by the time you get to the next untap step. You would need a longer-term control effect like Control Magic to actually be able to use the Seedborn Muse's ability.






          share|improve this answer
























          • Thanks for the answers. My question was primarily about whether or not instant speed effects can resolve before untap.

            – Grenzo Winzo
            15 mins ago













          • The rules reference from doppelgänger was very helpful. I was using the term trigger- not as a descriptor of the ability but just to mean “initiate.” Because in one example (jeering instigator)- I’m using a triggered ability, while in the other (Vedalken Orrery)- I’m using a static ability to cast a sorcery with flash- but in both cases I’m using the effect at instant speed. I was under the impression that “flash” allowed cards to resolve at instant speed.

            – Grenzo Winzo
            3 mins ago











          • Does vedalken Orrery only allow casting at instant speed- but non-instant spells still resolve last?

            – Grenzo Winzo
            2 mins ago











          Your Answer








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          2 Answers
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          2 Answers
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          Well, obviously there will be points in the game prior to your opponent's untap step. For instance, on the turn before your opponents turn, you can grab the Seedborn Muse during the ending phase. If that's your turn, you can announce after your second main phase "I am casting Act of Treason using Vedalken Orrery's ability". Or, if you're in a multiplayer game, if that's another player's turn, then when that other player announces the end of their turn, you can say the same; when a player says they're ending their turn, they're just passing priority, and other players have the chance to take actions before the turn actually ends.



          However, there are two problems.



          First, Act of Treason only lasts until end of turn. If you do this during the end step you will pass Seedborn Muse back more or less immediately after it. You will not have Seedborn Muse by the time the next turn starts and it will be back under the control of whoever had it last.



          Second, once the untap phase begins, it's too late to do anything to affect what happens in the untap phase. Even when something is "instant", you still have to wait until you receive priority, and




          No player receives priority during this step so spells or abilities cannot be played. — Rules for the Beginning Phase




          You first receive priority during your Upkeep, by which time Seedborn Muse has already had its effect and it is too late for gaining control of it to do much for you.






          share|improve this answer


























          • You're correct that you can cast whatever spell on a different turn, before Seedborn Muse's ability applies, but I think you should address the fact that if you do so with an Act of Treason-type effect, the control-change ability will unavoidably end during that same turn. Also, I don't think you understood what the card Vedalken Orrery does.

            – murgatroid99
            1 hour ago











          • I have updated this to (a) accurately reflect the interaction with Vedalken Orrery, since it is not an activated ability and therefore saying it is activated would be incorrect, (b) point out the end of turn issue with Act of Treason.

            – doppelgreener
            1 hour ago
















          2














          Well, obviously there will be points in the game prior to your opponent's untap step. For instance, on the turn before your opponents turn, you can grab the Seedborn Muse during the ending phase. If that's your turn, you can announce after your second main phase "I am casting Act of Treason using Vedalken Orrery's ability". Or, if you're in a multiplayer game, if that's another player's turn, then when that other player announces the end of their turn, you can say the same; when a player says they're ending their turn, they're just passing priority, and other players have the chance to take actions before the turn actually ends.



          However, there are two problems.



          First, Act of Treason only lasts until end of turn. If you do this during the end step you will pass Seedborn Muse back more or less immediately after it. You will not have Seedborn Muse by the time the next turn starts and it will be back under the control of whoever had it last.



          Second, once the untap phase begins, it's too late to do anything to affect what happens in the untap phase. Even when something is "instant", you still have to wait until you receive priority, and




          No player receives priority during this step so spells or abilities cannot be played. — Rules for the Beginning Phase




          You first receive priority during your Upkeep, by which time Seedborn Muse has already had its effect and it is too late for gaining control of it to do much for you.






          share|improve this answer


























          • You're correct that you can cast whatever spell on a different turn, before Seedborn Muse's ability applies, but I think you should address the fact that if you do so with an Act of Treason-type effect, the control-change ability will unavoidably end during that same turn. Also, I don't think you understood what the card Vedalken Orrery does.

            – murgatroid99
            1 hour ago











          • I have updated this to (a) accurately reflect the interaction with Vedalken Orrery, since it is not an activated ability and therefore saying it is activated would be incorrect, (b) point out the end of turn issue with Act of Treason.

            – doppelgreener
            1 hour ago














          2












          2








          2







          Well, obviously there will be points in the game prior to your opponent's untap step. For instance, on the turn before your opponents turn, you can grab the Seedborn Muse during the ending phase. If that's your turn, you can announce after your second main phase "I am casting Act of Treason using Vedalken Orrery's ability". Or, if you're in a multiplayer game, if that's another player's turn, then when that other player announces the end of their turn, you can say the same; when a player says they're ending their turn, they're just passing priority, and other players have the chance to take actions before the turn actually ends.



          However, there are two problems.



          First, Act of Treason only lasts until end of turn. If you do this during the end step you will pass Seedborn Muse back more or less immediately after it. You will not have Seedborn Muse by the time the next turn starts and it will be back under the control of whoever had it last.



          Second, once the untap phase begins, it's too late to do anything to affect what happens in the untap phase. Even when something is "instant", you still have to wait until you receive priority, and




          No player receives priority during this step so spells or abilities cannot be played. — Rules for the Beginning Phase




          You first receive priority during your Upkeep, by which time Seedborn Muse has already had its effect and it is too late for gaining control of it to do much for you.






          share|improve this answer















          Well, obviously there will be points in the game prior to your opponent's untap step. For instance, on the turn before your opponents turn, you can grab the Seedborn Muse during the ending phase. If that's your turn, you can announce after your second main phase "I am casting Act of Treason using Vedalken Orrery's ability". Or, if you're in a multiplayer game, if that's another player's turn, then when that other player announces the end of their turn, you can say the same; when a player says they're ending their turn, they're just passing priority, and other players have the chance to take actions before the turn actually ends.



          However, there are two problems.



          First, Act of Treason only lasts until end of turn. If you do this during the end step you will pass Seedborn Muse back more or less immediately after it. You will not have Seedborn Muse by the time the next turn starts and it will be back under the control of whoever had it last.



          Second, once the untap phase begins, it's too late to do anything to affect what happens in the untap phase. Even when something is "instant", you still have to wait until you receive priority, and




          No player receives priority during this step so spells or abilities cannot be played. — Rules for the Beginning Phase




          You first receive priority during your Upkeep, by which time Seedborn Muse has already had its effect and it is too late for gaining control of it to do much for you.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited 1 hour ago









          doppelgreener

          15.6k854120




          15.6k854120










          answered 2 hours ago









          AcccumulationAcccumulation

          58217




          58217













          • You're correct that you can cast whatever spell on a different turn, before Seedborn Muse's ability applies, but I think you should address the fact that if you do so with an Act of Treason-type effect, the control-change ability will unavoidably end during that same turn. Also, I don't think you understood what the card Vedalken Orrery does.

            – murgatroid99
            1 hour ago











          • I have updated this to (a) accurately reflect the interaction with Vedalken Orrery, since it is not an activated ability and therefore saying it is activated would be incorrect, (b) point out the end of turn issue with Act of Treason.

            – doppelgreener
            1 hour ago



















          • You're correct that you can cast whatever spell on a different turn, before Seedborn Muse's ability applies, but I think you should address the fact that if you do so with an Act of Treason-type effect, the control-change ability will unavoidably end during that same turn. Also, I don't think you understood what the card Vedalken Orrery does.

            – murgatroid99
            1 hour ago











          • I have updated this to (a) accurately reflect the interaction with Vedalken Orrery, since it is not an activated ability and therefore saying it is activated would be incorrect, (b) point out the end of turn issue with Act of Treason.

            – doppelgreener
            1 hour ago

















          You're correct that you can cast whatever spell on a different turn, before Seedborn Muse's ability applies, but I think you should address the fact that if you do so with an Act of Treason-type effect, the control-change ability will unavoidably end during that same turn. Also, I don't think you understood what the card Vedalken Orrery does.

          – murgatroid99
          1 hour ago





          You're correct that you can cast whatever spell on a different turn, before Seedborn Muse's ability applies, but I think you should address the fact that if you do so with an Act of Treason-type effect, the control-change ability will unavoidably end during that same turn. Also, I don't think you understood what the card Vedalken Orrery does.

          – murgatroid99
          1 hour ago













          I have updated this to (a) accurately reflect the interaction with Vedalken Orrery, since it is not an activated ability and therefore saying it is activated would be incorrect, (b) point out the end of turn issue with Act of Treason.

          – doppelgreener
          1 hour ago





          I have updated this to (a) accurately reflect the interaction with Vedalken Orrery, since it is not an activated ability and therefore saying it is activated would be incorrect, (b) point out the end of turn issue with Act of Treason.

          – doppelgreener
          1 hour ago











          1














          There are ways to take control of a Seedborn Muse and use its ability to untap your permanents, but an effect that only lasts until end of turn like on Act of Treason won't help you there.



          Seedborn Muse's ability happens during the untap step, the very first thing in a turn. You have no opportunity to act in that same turn before that happens. And if you use an effect like on Act of Treason or Jeering Instigator to take control of the Seedborn Muse on a previous turn, that effect giving you control of it will end during that same turn, so it will be back under its owner's control by the time you get to the next untap step. You would need a longer-term control effect like Control Magic to actually be able to use the Seedborn Muse's ability.






          share|improve this answer
























          • Thanks for the answers. My question was primarily about whether or not instant speed effects can resolve before untap.

            – Grenzo Winzo
            15 mins ago













          • The rules reference from doppelgänger was very helpful. I was using the term trigger- not as a descriptor of the ability but just to mean “initiate.” Because in one example (jeering instigator)- I’m using a triggered ability, while in the other (Vedalken Orrery)- I’m using a static ability to cast a sorcery with flash- but in both cases I’m using the effect at instant speed. I was under the impression that “flash” allowed cards to resolve at instant speed.

            – Grenzo Winzo
            3 mins ago











          • Does vedalken Orrery only allow casting at instant speed- but non-instant spells still resolve last?

            – Grenzo Winzo
            2 mins ago
















          1














          There are ways to take control of a Seedborn Muse and use its ability to untap your permanents, but an effect that only lasts until end of turn like on Act of Treason won't help you there.



          Seedborn Muse's ability happens during the untap step, the very first thing in a turn. You have no opportunity to act in that same turn before that happens. And if you use an effect like on Act of Treason or Jeering Instigator to take control of the Seedborn Muse on a previous turn, that effect giving you control of it will end during that same turn, so it will be back under its owner's control by the time you get to the next untap step. You would need a longer-term control effect like Control Magic to actually be able to use the Seedborn Muse's ability.






          share|improve this answer
























          • Thanks for the answers. My question was primarily about whether or not instant speed effects can resolve before untap.

            – Grenzo Winzo
            15 mins ago













          • The rules reference from doppelgänger was very helpful. I was using the term trigger- not as a descriptor of the ability but just to mean “initiate.” Because in one example (jeering instigator)- I’m using a triggered ability, while in the other (Vedalken Orrery)- I’m using a static ability to cast a sorcery with flash- but in both cases I’m using the effect at instant speed. I was under the impression that “flash” allowed cards to resolve at instant speed.

            – Grenzo Winzo
            3 mins ago











          • Does vedalken Orrery only allow casting at instant speed- but non-instant spells still resolve last?

            – Grenzo Winzo
            2 mins ago














          1












          1








          1







          There are ways to take control of a Seedborn Muse and use its ability to untap your permanents, but an effect that only lasts until end of turn like on Act of Treason won't help you there.



          Seedborn Muse's ability happens during the untap step, the very first thing in a turn. You have no opportunity to act in that same turn before that happens. And if you use an effect like on Act of Treason or Jeering Instigator to take control of the Seedborn Muse on a previous turn, that effect giving you control of it will end during that same turn, so it will be back under its owner's control by the time you get to the next untap step. You would need a longer-term control effect like Control Magic to actually be able to use the Seedborn Muse's ability.






          share|improve this answer













          There are ways to take control of a Seedborn Muse and use its ability to untap your permanents, but an effect that only lasts until end of turn like on Act of Treason won't help you there.



          Seedborn Muse's ability happens during the untap step, the very first thing in a turn. You have no opportunity to act in that same turn before that happens. And if you use an effect like on Act of Treason or Jeering Instigator to take control of the Seedborn Muse on a previous turn, that effect giving you control of it will end during that same turn, so it will be back under its owner's control by the time you get to the next untap step. You would need a longer-term control effect like Control Magic to actually be able to use the Seedborn Muse's ability.







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered 1 hour ago









          murgatroid99murgatroid99

          45.9k7111189




          45.9k7111189













          • Thanks for the answers. My question was primarily about whether or not instant speed effects can resolve before untap.

            – Grenzo Winzo
            15 mins ago













          • The rules reference from doppelgänger was very helpful. I was using the term trigger- not as a descriptor of the ability but just to mean “initiate.” Because in one example (jeering instigator)- I’m using a triggered ability, while in the other (Vedalken Orrery)- I’m using a static ability to cast a sorcery with flash- but in both cases I’m using the effect at instant speed. I was under the impression that “flash” allowed cards to resolve at instant speed.

            – Grenzo Winzo
            3 mins ago











          • Does vedalken Orrery only allow casting at instant speed- but non-instant spells still resolve last?

            – Grenzo Winzo
            2 mins ago



















          • Thanks for the answers. My question was primarily about whether or not instant speed effects can resolve before untap.

            – Grenzo Winzo
            15 mins ago













          • The rules reference from doppelgänger was very helpful. I was using the term trigger- not as a descriptor of the ability but just to mean “initiate.” Because in one example (jeering instigator)- I’m using a triggered ability, while in the other (Vedalken Orrery)- I’m using a static ability to cast a sorcery with flash- but in both cases I’m using the effect at instant speed. I was under the impression that “flash” allowed cards to resolve at instant speed.

            – Grenzo Winzo
            3 mins ago











          • Does vedalken Orrery only allow casting at instant speed- but non-instant spells still resolve last?

            – Grenzo Winzo
            2 mins ago

















          Thanks for the answers. My question was primarily about whether or not instant speed effects can resolve before untap.

          – Grenzo Winzo
          15 mins ago







          Thanks for the answers. My question was primarily about whether or not instant speed effects can resolve before untap.

          – Grenzo Winzo
          15 mins ago















          The rules reference from doppelgänger was very helpful. I was using the term trigger- not as a descriptor of the ability but just to mean “initiate.” Because in one example (jeering instigator)- I’m using a triggered ability, while in the other (Vedalken Orrery)- I’m using a static ability to cast a sorcery with flash- but in both cases I’m using the effect at instant speed. I was under the impression that “flash” allowed cards to resolve at instant speed.

          – Grenzo Winzo
          3 mins ago





          The rules reference from doppelgänger was very helpful. I was using the term trigger- not as a descriptor of the ability but just to mean “initiate.” Because in one example (jeering instigator)- I’m using a triggered ability, while in the other (Vedalken Orrery)- I’m using a static ability to cast a sorcery with flash- but in both cases I’m using the effect at instant speed. I was under the impression that “flash” allowed cards to resolve at instant speed.

          – Grenzo Winzo
          3 mins ago













          Does vedalken Orrery only allow casting at instant speed- but non-instant spells still resolve last?

          – Grenzo Winzo
          2 mins ago





          Does vedalken Orrery only allow casting at instant speed- but non-instant spells still resolve last?

          – Grenzo Winzo
          2 mins ago










          Grenzo Winzo is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.










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