What are the ethical concerns of giving a notice period to an incompetent employee when it’s not required...
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I'm a team leader and I have a developer subordinate who is incompetent.
They joined the company about six months ago and have failed in every single task given. At first, I thought it was simply an issue of getting used to our way of working, to adjusting to our domain and tech stack, but over time I discovered the employee didn't grasp even the simplest concepts of software development. They have many years of experience with different companies and it is beyond me how a person with such credentials could be such a bad performer.
Of course, I addressed my observations with them. Over the last five months, we've spoken many times, discussed the problems, suggested ways to improve, and made plans on what tasks to start working on.
My hope was that I either find some type of tasks that they could do okay, or that the developer would improve their skills. Unfortunately, neither happened, and four weeks ago I told the employee I was putting them on a personal improvement plan. I did this with no official paperwork, as the developer was on probation anyway. My company mandates a probation period of six months for all new employees.
Four weeks forward and there's been no change. Actually, it's now even worse - my developer disrespects working hours more often, does not follow instructions and reports almost no work progress at daily stand-up meetings. Looking in retrospect, the number of completed tasks for their whole stay can be counted on my fingers.
Therefore, I made the decision to fire the developer. As a team lead I can't hire or fire people directly, I do this through my boss - so after updating her on the situation, I got her okay, but was also asked for the amount of notice period that should be given. This is where my dilemma is.
According to contract, employees are not owed any notice while they are still on probation. I would be okay with an exception, but for an employee who has actually put in effort in their job. To me and to my team this engineer is worse than useless - in fact work is slower with them on board, because we have to spend time helping them out, getting nothing in return. So if we give out a notice period, this person will just occupy office space, probably using their time to browse job sites. I don't feel we should be losing company money on this.
On the other hand, I feel just kicking them on the street at the beginning of December isn't the right thing and that I'm so keen on firing them mostly because I feel taken advantage of. I feel this person thought I wasn't serious and wouldn't fire them. I don't want to be evil, but I also don't have any tasks I can give the developer during their notice period - there's nothing they can complete in a week or two's time (we are absolutely not giving them a longer notice).
What I ultimately did was prepare a list of what the person had still to finish (not much), and let my manager know my team had no further work for them. I told her no notice period was needed from my standpoint, but deferred the final decision to her.
I'm new at leading teams, and my questions are:
- Does a person have to "deserve" their notice period or should it be always given, simply because this is "the right thing to do" or so you don't burn any bridges?
- How do you get a person to understand you're serious about taking action regarding their poor performance, so they improve (or seek another job they'd be a better fit for) instead of getting fired?
- How do you decide (and at what point) that a person is not good, rather than simply not used to a new job, so you can take action to get them off the team?
termination notice-period
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I'm a team leader and I have a developer subordinate who is incompetent.
They joined the company about six months ago and have failed in every single task given. At first, I thought it was simply an issue of getting used to our way of working, to adjusting to our domain and tech stack, but over time I discovered the employee didn't grasp even the simplest concepts of software development. They have many years of experience with different companies and it is beyond me how a person with such credentials could be such a bad performer.
Of course, I addressed my observations with them. Over the last five months, we've spoken many times, discussed the problems, suggested ways to improve, and made plans on what tasks to start working on.
My hope was that I either find some type of tasks that they could do okay, or that the developer would improve their skills. Unfortunately, neither happened, and four weeks ago I told the employee I was putting them on a personal improvement plan. I did this with no official paperwork, as the developer was on probation anyway. My company mandates a probation period of six months for all new employees.
Four weeks forward and there's been no change. Actually, it's now even worse - my developer disrespects working hours more often, does not follow instructions and reports almost no work progress at daily stand-up meetings. Looking in retrospect, the number of completed tasks for their whole stay can be counted on my fingers.
Therefore, I made the decision to fire the developer. As a team lead I can't hire or fire people directly, I do this through my boss - so after updating her on the situation, I got her okay, but was also asked for the amount of notice period that should be given. This is where my dilemma is.
According to contract, employees are not owed any notice while they are still on probation. I would be okay with an exception, but for an employee who has actually put in effort in their job. To me and to my team this engineer is worse than useless - in fact work is slower with them on board, because we have to spend time helping them out, getting nothing in return. So if we give out a notice period, this person will just occupy office space, probably using their time to browse job sites. I don't feel we should be losing company money on this.
On the other hand, I feel just kicking them on the street at the beginning of December isn't the right thing and that I'm so keen on firing them mostly because I feel taken advantage of. I feel this person thought I wasn't serious and wouldn't fire them. I don't want to be evil, but I also don't have any tasks I can give the developer during their notice period - there's nothing they can complete in a week or two's time (we are absolutely not giving them a longer notice).
What I ultimately did was prepare a list of what the person had still to finish (not much), and let my manager know my team had no further work for them. I told her no notice period was needed from my standpoint, but deferred the final decision to her.
I'm new at leading teams, and my questions are:
- Does a person have to "deserve" their notice period or should it be always given, simply because this is "the right thing to do" or so you don't burn any bridges?
- How do you get a person to understand you're serious about taking action regarding their poor performance, so they improve (or seek another job they'd be a better fit for) instead of getting fired?
- How do you decide (and at what point) that a person is not good, rather than simply not used to a new job, so you can take action to get them off the team?
termination notice-period
give him a notice until 01.01.19 the employee will most properly not come to work anyway. Most properly he will send a sick notice from a doctor. Even if he was not a good employee, just be kind and let him stay after new year
– undefined
12 hours ago
If you want to get people to take improving themselves seriously, don't call it a "performance improvement plan", or anything similar -- that's pretty common shorthand for "We want to fire you, but we want to document that it's because you're shit at your job, and not for any of the many illegal reasons, so you can't sue us." Instead, invite them to go through these curated courses for self-education, before you put them on PIP.
– Nic Hartley
4 hours ago
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I'm a team leader and I have a developer subordinate who is incompetent.
They joined the company about six months ago and have failed in every single task given. At first, I thought it was simply an issue of getting used to our way of working, to adjusting to our domain and tech stack, but over time I discovered the employee didn't grasp even the simplest concepts of software development. They have many years of experience with different companies and it is beyond me how a person with such credentials could be such a bad performer.
Of course, I addressed my observations with them. Over the last five months, we've spoken many times, discussed the problems, suggested ways to improve, and made plans on what tasks to start working on.
My hope was that I either find some type of tasks that they could do okay, or that the developer would improve their skills. Unfortunately, neither happened, and four weeks ago I told the employee I was putting them on a personal improvement plan. I did this with no official paperwork, as the developer was on probation anyway. My company mandates a probation period of six months for all new employees.
Four weeks forward and there's been no change. Actually, it's now even worse - my developer disrespects working hours more often, does not follow instructions and reports almost no work progress at daily stand-up meetings. Looking in retrospect, the number of completed tasks for their whole stay can be counted on my fingers.
Therefore, I made the decision to fire the developer. As a team lead I can't hire or fire people directly, I do this through my boss - so after updating her on the situation, I got her okay, but was also asked for the amount of notice period that should be given. This is where my dilemma is.
According to contract, employees are not owed any notice while they are still on probation. I would be okay with an exception, but for an employee who has actually put in effort in their job. To me and to my team this engineer is worse than useless - in fact work is slower with them on board, because we have to spend time helping them out, getting nothing in return. So if we give out a notice period, this person will just occupy office space, probably using their time to browse job sites. I don't feel we should be losing company money on this.
On the other hand, I feel just kicking them on the street at the beginning of December isn't the right thing and that I'm so keen on firing them mostly because I feel taken advantage of. I feel this person thought I wasn't serious and wouldn't fire them. I don't want to be evil, but I also don't have any tasks I can give the developer during their notice period - there's nothing they can complete in a week or two's time (we are absolutely not giving them a longer notice).
What I ultimately did was prepare a list of what the person had still to finish (not much), and let my manager know my team had no further work for them. I told her no notice period was needed from my standpoint, but deferred the final decision to her.
I'm new at leading teams, and my questions are:
- Does a person have to "deserve" their notice period or should it be always given, simply because this is "the right thing to do" or so you don't burn any bridges?
- How do you get a person to understand you're serious about taking action regarding their poor performance, so they improve (or seek another job they'd be a better fit for) instead of getting fired?
- How do you decide (and at what point) that a person is not good, rather than simply not used to a new job, so you can take action to get them off the team?
termination notice-period
I'm a team leader and I have a developer subordinate who is incompetent.
They joined the company about six months ago and have failed in every single task given. At first, I thought it was simply an issue of getting used to our way of working, to adjusting to our domain and tech stack, but over time I discovered the employee didn't grasp even the simplest concepts of software development. They have many years of experience with different companies and it is beyond me how a person with such credentials could be such a bad performer.
Of course, I addressed my observations with them. Over the last five months, we've spoken many times, discussed the problems, suggested ways to improve, and made plans on what tasks to start working on.
My hope was that I either find some type of tasks that they could do okay, or that the developer would improve their skills. Unfortunately, neither happened, and four weeks ago I told the employee I was putting them on a personal improvement plan. I did this with no official paperwork, as the developer was on probation anyway. My company mandates a probation period of six months for all new employees.
Four weeks forward and there's been no change. Actually, it's now even worse - my developer disrespects working hours more often, does not follow instructions and reports almost no work progress at daily stand-up meetings. Looking in retrospect, the number of completed tasks for their whole stay can be counted on my fingers.
Therefore, I made the decision to fire the developer. As a team lead I can't hire or fire people directly, I do this through my boss - so after updating her on the situation, I got her okay, but was also asked for the amount of notice period that should be given. This is where my dilemma is.
According to contract, employees are not owed any notice while they are still on probation. I would be okay with an exception, but for an employee who has actually put in effort in their job. To me and to my team this engineer is worse than useless - in fact work is slower with them on board, because we have to spend time helping them out, getting nothing in return. So if we give out a notice period, this person will just occupy office space, probably using their time to browse job sites. I don't feel we should be losing company money on this.
On the other hand, I feel just kicking them on the street at the beginning of December isn't the right thing and that I'm so keen on firing them mostly because I feel taken advantage of. I feel this person thought I wasn't serious and wouldn't fire them. I don't want to be evil, but I also don't have any tasks I can give the developer during their notice period - there's nothing they can complete in a week or two's time (we are absolutely not giving them a longer notice).
What I ultimately did was prepare a list of what the person had still to finish (not much), and let my manager know my team had no further work for them. I told her no notice period was needed from my standpoint, but deferred the final decision to her.
I'm new at leading teams, and my questions are:
- Does a person have to "deserve" their notice period or should it be always given, simply because this is "the right thing to do" or so you don't burn any bridges?
- How do you get a person to understand you're serious about taking action regarding their poor performance, so they improve (or seek another job they'd be a better fit for) instead of getting fired?
- How do you decide (and at what point) that a person is not good, rather than simply not used to a new job, so you can take action to get them off the team?
termination notice-period
termination notice-period
edited 6 hours ago
JakeGould
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7,3941840
asked yesterday
JohnSomeone
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give him a notice until 01.01.19 the employee will most properly not come to work anyway. Most properly he will send a sick notice from a doctor. Even if he was not a good employee, just be kind and let him stay after new year
– undefined
12 hours ago
If you want to get people to take improving themselves seriously, don't call it a "performance improvement plan", or anything similar -- that's pretty common shorthand for "We want to fire you, but we want to document that it's because you're shit at your job, and not for any of the many illegal reasons, so you can't sue us." Instead, invite them to go through these curated courses for self-education, before you put them on PIP.
– Nic Hartley
4 hours ago
add a comment |
give him a notice until 01.01.19 the employee will most properly not come to work anyway. Most properly he will send a sick notice from a doctor. Even if he was not a good employee, just be kind and let him stay after new year
– undefined
12 hours ago
If you want to get people to take improving themselves seriously, don't call it a "performance improvement plan", or anything similar -- that's pretty common shorthand for "We want to fire you, but we want to document that it's because you're shit at your job, and not for any of the many illegal reasons, so you can't sue us." Instead, invite them to go through these curated courses for self-education, before you put them on PIP.
– Nic Hartley
4 hours ago
give him a notice until 01.01.19 the employee will most properly not come to work anyway. Most properly he will send a sick notice from a doctor. Even if he was not a good employee, just be kind and let him stay after new year
– undefined
12 hours ago
give him a notice until 01.01.19 the employee will most properly not come to work anyway. Most properly he will send a sick notice from a doctor. Even if he was not a good employee, just be kind and let him stay after new year
– undefined
12 hours ago
If you want to get people to take improving themselves seriously, don't call it a "performance improvement plan", or anything similar -- that's pretty common shorthand for "We want to fire you, but we want to document that it's because you're shit at your job, and not for any of the many illegal reasons, so you can't sue us." Instead, invite them to go through these curated courses for self-education, before you put them on PIP.
– Nic Hartley
4 hours ago
If you want to get people to take improving themselves seriously, don't call it a "performance improvement plan", or anything similar -- that's pretty common shorthand for "We want to fire you, but we want to document that it's because you're shit at your job, and not for any of the many illegal reasons, so you can't sue us." Instead, invite them to go through these curated courses for self-education, before you put them on PIP.
– Nic Hartley
4 hours ago
add a comment |
9 Answers
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I think you are misunderstanding the question from your boss, and over thinking the situation.
Your boss isn't asking how long you want as notice for the person, she actually wants to know what the effect of this person leaving has on your team and delivery.
"I'd say 4 weeks as we'll need X here while we fix that new module they spent 4 months on. No one can work out how it is supposed to work, and if we don't we'll miss the Feb delivery" etc
There should be HR plans around how this will happen by default when a probation doesn't work out. Your boss just wants to make sure that it won't throw a spanner in current plans, as opposed to riding out the person for a little longer to ensure handover.
So just respond on what you need (the person isn't working on anything critical so we can wrap up asap) and leave it to people who's job is to take tough decisions like this.
24
interesting take on the matter, might be worth clarifying this with the boss. This is a definite possibility.
– Kilisi
yesterday
3
Ok, but I would still tell your boss about what you need from person X and let your boss make the decision. If nothing else if person X decided they wanted to sort it out in a court, better to not be having to explain your thoughts there.
– The Wandering Dev Manager
yesterday
13
Agreed. The answer is "none - we're better off without them" then let management do their management things.
– Lightness Races in Orbit
yesterday
5
Well DonQuiKong one of the best skills of a leader is to be able to delegate upwards. If you can get your boss to do stuff for you, you are truly in charge. Servant Leadership and all that.
– The Wandering Dev Manager
yesterday
4
Interesting take on it. But, AIUI, you don't expect a fired employee to contribute anything in their notice period - in fact, you generally walk them straight out the door.
– Grimm The Opiner
17 hours ago
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31
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Does a person have to "deserve" their notice period or should it be always given, simply because this is "the right thing to do" or so you don't burn any bridges?
There is no such thing as 'deserve' in business. If it's not contracted, then there is no obligation. Sometimes there is a company policy or even 'norm' that applies.
But not in your case. Which makes this a purely personal decision that we can't make for you. The pros of doing so are all to the benefit of the employee, the cons are all to the detriment of the company. Your problem is whether to let your personal feelings be a factor or not. Professionally you don't without authority, but you have been given the authority so it's up to you.
Hard decisions are why companies need leads and managers but to hit the core of your question, there is no ethical dilemna here with sacking without notice period.
12
I agree business is business but any person you interact with on such a level will be speaking to others (we are in a small market) about you and the business you represent. So if they are treated with respect and regard for their well-being (i.e. not being left on the street just before the holidays), they should be leaving with less hard feelings and just face the truth they weren't a good match. On the other hand, that's not always worth it, because it's on the expense of the company. It shouldn't be paying for incompetent workers.
– JohnSomeone
yesterday
7
@JohnSomeone they have already had several talks and 4 weeks PIP in which time they got worse. They already know the problem, it's not something just sprang out today. They're not owed anything else or have any reason to complain. But a disgruntled employee will complain anyway, nothing can stop that.
– Kilisi
yesterday
1
While I very much agree in this case the employee doesn't seem to be worthy of a notice and is behaving like being fired is inevitable, this answer needs a few caveats. The business that gives no notice in general will find itself on receives no notice in general.
– Joshua
8 hours ago
@Joshua valid point in general
– Kilisi
5 hours ago
To add to this a firing is rarely a total surprise to an employee. Most are smart enough to understand when things aren't working out and their days are numbered. If this guy is struggling as much as you say then I'm sure he sees the writing on the walls.
– Lee Abraham
5 hours ago
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17
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Give the employee a notice period that is standard in your company. You will not regret it in a long (enough) term.
10
Sometimes the simple answer is best. I've been in a situation where people were fired with no notice, and the hit to the morale of the rest of the team was worse than just paying two weeks would have been (especially as the first person fired wasn't even well liked, and we would probably have held a party if they had left under less brutal circumstances...the second person was well liked, after which point everyone began updating resumes asap).
– user3067860
yesterday
I would normally agree, but my company has a whole month of standard notice period, plus it was made clear to the employee they were not doing a good enough job, months in advance. Being put on a PIP should have served as a notice period of a sort, or I was hoping so. Finally, everyone on the team could see this person was not performing, so firing them doesn't happen out of the blue. But I do understand your point - people would like to know that if they don't perform, they can still get humane treatment.
– JohnSomeone
19 hours ago
3
@JohnSomeone: I didn’t want to be explicit but humane treatment is the core point. Be the noble one and put it all behind you. @user3067860’s reason is good too and highlights the effects of the same action from the business perspective.
– displayName
19 hours ago
2
Don't give notice, give severance (or, if you're feeling kind, keep "employing" them for a month or two and tell them not to come in so they can stay on your insurance). You don't want to keep a fired employee around because of the risk of sabotage or tension, and you won't get much productivity out of them anyway. cc @JohnSomeone
– Kevin
5 hours ago
@JohnSomeone: Also, armed with the new knowledge of how your current rules have played out in this case, go ahead and update the rules after this case is over.
– displayName
12 mins ago
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up vote
15
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It seems you found an employee who is sadly totally incapable of doing their job. You gave them a lot of chances to improve, and they didn't - quite the opposite.
The last weeks seem to be the effect of what I would recommend to any employee: If you feel you are on the way out, don't worry about the old company, getting a new job should have priority. Sure that's bad for the employer, but if the employee asks, I will say what's best for the employee.
As far as OP is concerned: Ethically you are absolutely fine of letting him go without notice. Obviously check that your boss, HR, and the laws of your country agree with it. Your boss will of course want to know if the employee leaving tomorrow will cause any problems; apparently it won't and your team's productivity won't be harmed so that's fine.
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I'm new at leading teams
I think that your performance as an inexperienced leader may've also been a contributing factor to the situation your employee is facing right now.
If teams share in their success, then they must also share in their failures.
While this does not excuse the employee, you and your team should see this situation as a team failure. Take a long hard look at the things that you and your team will do to avoid this kind of team failure from repeating itself in the future with another new-hire.
Teams must set themselves up for success.
Does a person have to "deserve" their notice period or should it be always given, simply because this is "the right thing to do" or so you don't burn any bridges?
What I think people "deserve" is to be treated with respect, dignity, and professionalism. That's not to say that you must "agree" or "celebrate" their behavior; they're different things.
At my workplace, there was an intern that, according to management, was under-performing. (I didn't see this myself, as I was a new-hire at the time on a different team.)
He was still given a notice period because that is The Right Thing to Do™. The notice period was roughly two weeks, from what I recall. The company took a quantified 2 week "hit", but that was it.
On the other hand, this is what happened when the company laid off ~%2 of its workforce earlier this year. There was no notice period; it was "effective immediately". Well, the employees that were left behind were not happy at all with how the company had treated their "valued" employees [1], and that created a significant amount of distrust and can still be felt today and was reflected in company surveys of "leadership".
When a company shows that it is all talk (e.g. "we value our employees", we "always strive to do what's right", etc), and companies usually like to parrot these things, but then pull a stunt like this, then the company is, by actions, showing how hypocritical it is towards its own "valued" employees. Some employees that had not been laid off chose to leave later in the year anyway.
The point of this is that, whether you have a contract obligation or not, as a leader, you need to take into account the impact of your actions. Besides, it's not like employees get offered contracts that favor them in any way; the contracts that companies provide are entirely one-sided, making the "we're not required to do this by contract" excuse a textbook example of begging the question.
Therefore, with this in mind, you must understand that, had employees really been able to have an actual choice, they would've certainly liked to get some sort of notice.
Look at it the other way around: Suppose your employees have no requirement to give you a 2 week notice before leaving, and they leave you in a tough spot, what would you think about it? In short, treat others the same way you'd like others to treat you. End of story.
[1] And these weren't even under-performers; it was due to bad management decisions that put the company in a tough financial spot. But hey, at least now I know what kind of "loyalty" I can expect from my company in the future, right?
How do you get a person to understand you're serious about taking action regarding their poor performance, so they improve (or seek another job they'd be a better fit for) instead of getting fired?
I think your approach as a leader sets the tone of the conversation. Perception, clarity, and straightforwardness go a long way, and if your company has the kind of culture where everything is too political and everyone must read "between the lines", then perhaps you could've been more up front and explicit about the situation.
However, I don't know what was said or how it was communicated, so you'll need to keep this in mind, especially if someone is not yet used to the company culture and the true meanings behind certain things.
For example, at a former employer, they'd have a tendency to say "That's a great idea" to things they had no interest in, so I got burned a few times because of that disingenuous nonsense, since saying "We can't work on that at this time" or something to that effect would've been better by not causing confusion. I assume you get my point.
How do you decide (and at what point) that a person is not good, rather than simply not used to a new job, so you can take action to get them off the team?
I don't think there's a hard-and-fast rule for this, such as "always wait X months". You must account for the actual background of the person and the actual tasks that you gave him.
For example, at a former employer, I had been interviewed as a firmware engineer, but then spent the 1st year doing the work of a firmware test engineer.
As I stated in my comment under OP, this was a bait-and-switch, which contributed to frustration, lack of motivation, and being generally upset for a while. However, I did not take this as an excuse to under-perform (I did quite well, actually) and later moved on to do software engineering work, but you must at least be aware of whether this did or didn't happen at your company with that employee and how that might've contributed, if it happened at all.
In my experience, depending on the kind of work (and actual effectiveness of any help received, if any), the complexity of existing systems could require devs to spend anywhere between 3 - 12 months to become reasonably effective at something. (Again, depending on actual complexity, and mentorship, etc.)
As someone who has mentored interns several times, I can say that I've seen some do well and others not-so-well for different reasons.
An intern that didn't so too well had been, unfortunately, set up for failure by a more senior engineer who severely under-estimated the complexity of the project to which the intern was assigned.
This, in combination with the intern's attitude problem (probably a side-effect of frustration), ended up contributing to his failure. While I didn't mentor this particular intern, I don't think I would've been able to do much either, given the situation.
In summary, based on my experience, in many (not all) cases, employee failures are as much the fault of the employee as it is the fault of management and leadership within the same company. Only you can take an honest look at this and see what does and doesn't apply.
+1, though (unless you know more than you've indicated) it may be misleading to say that in the case of the layoff, "There was no notice period; it was 'effective immediately'." When companies I've worked at have laid people off, they've paid those people "severance" equivalent to multiple weeks' salary. I think that's actually better than a notice period, but it can look worse to people who don't realize that such severance was paid.
– ruakh
21 hours ago
@ruakh Thanks. When we spoke to some of those affected, they confirmed they had received no notice period. It caught all of them by surprise. I wouldn't have said they received no notice period if I really didn't know what had happened.
– code_dredd
21 hours ago
I think you may have misunderstood my comment. I'm not challenging your claim that they received no notice; rather, I'm raising the possibility that they received severance pay. If they did receive severance pay, then it's misleading to say only that they received no notice.
– ruakh
21 hours ago
@ruakh I think receiving severance pay and receiving notice period are two separate things. For example, I've had friends receive both the notice period and severance pay afterwards. Therefore, I disagree with the claim that I'm being "misleading".
– code_dredd
21 hours ago
4
If they had gotten severance pay the thing would not be as onesided, because the employees were not simply let go but had a kind of compensation. Also I would agree, I'd prefer severance pay without notice period above notice period without severance. Getting both being the best, ofc.
– Philipp
19 hours ago
|
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up vote
9
down vote
Don't give them notice.
Give them a severance pay package that would be commensurate with the standard notice period.
You will not be doing them nor anyone else any favors in allowing them to continue.
It may seem harsh, but it is actually the kindest thing you can do for them. No one likes to be the "walking dead" on a job site. Also, involuntary terminations open the door for retaliation, especially as a developer.
You should have your sys admins ready to cut all their access the minute the door to the office closes. If possible, walk them out a side door so they don't have to do the "perp walk" out through their former colleagues.
In the tech field this is the common thing. Perhaps a combo of severance pay, with "work from home" call in by phone for information exchange.
– ivanivan
9 hours ago
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up vote
3
down vote
Creating this answer since I don't see anyone considering the probation period.
I work for a Portuguese company and here it is customary that the first 3 contracts have a fixed end date (6 or 12 month contracts). We are a tech support company and are struggling getting people that speak the languages we provide support for. There are incentives of 1000€ if you bring in people speaking a certain language, we are struggling to meet KPI's at times, we renew contracts of people that just aren't that good.... Even with all these signs, people due for a renewal stress that their contract might not be renewed and there's always a bit of relief when they get the email saying their contract is ready to be signed at HR. I wrote all this to tell you that your colleague should know well enough what the consequences can be at the end of his probation.
Your team member was on probation and got a PIP without showing signs of improvement. They should not be surprised when you terminate the contract.
Since you ask how to show a team member you are serious, I think you made a mistake by not having an official PIP started. Putting stuff to paper with clear consequences will always have more weight.
How to decide when enough is enough? When there's been no improvement for some time and no drive to improve. This is what you have the PIP for.
Concerning the ethics at play, it might be good to read how Netflix views this:
We model ourselves on being a team, not a family. A family is about unconditional love, despite your siblings’ unusual behavior. A dream team is about pushing yourself to be the best teammate you can be, caring intensely about your teammates, and knowing that you may not be on the team forever. Source
I also follow The Wandering Dev Manager's answer in that your boss is only asking you how much time is needed to minimize the impact to your team.
add a comment |
up vote
-1
down vote
One factor to consider: is there a risk of this individual doing some kind of active harm to the organization or team (e.g. spreading malicious rumors, committing acts of vandalism or property damage, causing subtle harm to the system, etc.) during the notice period?
In terms of the effect on the morale of the rest of the team: I'm guessing that other people in your team have already figured out that the person is incompetent, especially if they're reporting virtually no progress on any task during stand-ups and aren't completing tasks. That being said, keeping this individual around could actually hurt morale. I worked at a company where certain employees had a reputation for not doing anything useful, and it was bad for morale because it made it look like management didn't care whether you performed well or not.
Based on what you've stated, it also sounds like you've had multiple discussions with the individual, including the informal PIP. Given that and their subsequent apparent lack of effort to improve, the individual shouldn't be surprised that they were fired. Admittedly, the timing (December) is at least mildly unfortunate, but that's kind of their own fault.
For future reference, it may have been better if you had formally documented his poor performance (e.g. the PIP and his subsequent lack of improvement) and possibly given an "official" length for his PIP (i.e. he has to meet specific goals within, for example, a month). That's probably not as big of a deal in this case, though, given that the employee is still in their probation period, so you really aren't obligated to do so.
add a comment |
up vote
-28
down vote
- When you terminate a contract, you have to make it effective immediately. No notice period under any circumstance. Please don’t feel sorry, firing someone is a sign of your power. The more you do the more you are good at, the more you are happy, and the better team lead you are. Donald Trump is a good example.
- You had face to face discussion. Not much else you could do.
- As a team lead you fire anyone you personally don’t like, working performance is a key factor. Anytime you see someone not reporting good progress repeatedly in daily meetings, you give a warning letter. No further improvement. It’s over.
You shouldn’t feel bad, please watch Donald Trump old TV shows. “You’re fired”
20
If you feel that reality TV shows actually reflect reality, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you
– Peter M
yesterday
6
Ha Ha! Trump doesn't fire people in the WH (Kelly does it), and didn't even decide in the Apprentice - huffingtonpost.ca/entry/…
– The Wandering Dev Manager
yesterday
30
However what troubles the most about your answer is that implies you should gain pleasure from firing someone (Power/Good/Happy) without considering the person that is fired. IMHO this lacks empathy and is bordering on being cruel. Regardless of the qualities of the person being fired you are screwing them over. Thus I feel they deserve a modicum of empathy for what you are putting them through.
– Peter M
yesterday
14
Yeah agree with @PeterM. If the firing was for destructive behavior that'd be one thing. Removing someone incompetent may bring relief but should be handled in a professional way. This is why the Trump example is so bad, not just that it's false, but also how ignorant the act actually is.
– The Wandering Dev Manager
yesterday
8
The more people you fire, the better team lead you are? Seriously? Please put me in touch with your team lead!
– Dawood ibn Kareem
yesterday
|
show 9 more comments
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9 Answers
9
active
oldest
votes
9 Answers
9
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
117
down vote
I think you are misunderstanding the question from your boss, and over thinking the situation.
Your boss isn't asking how long you want as notice for the person, she actually wants to know what the effect of this person leaving has on your team and delivery.
"I'd say 4 weeks as we'll need X here while we fix that new module they spent 4 months on. No one can work out how it is supposed to work, and if we don't we'll miss the Feb delivery" etc
There should be HR plans around how this will happen by default when a probation doesn't work out. Your boss just wants to make sure that it won't throw a spanner in current plans, as opposed to riding out the person for a little longer to ensure handover.
So just respond on what you need (the person isn't working on anything critical so we can wrap up asap) and leave it to people who's job is to take tough decisions like this.
24
interesting take on the matter, might be worth clarifying this with the boss. This is a definite possibility.
– Kilisi
yesterday
3
Ok, but I would still tell your boss about what you need from person X and let your boss make the decision. If nothing else if person X decided they wanted to sort it out in a court, better to not be having to explain your thoughts there.
– The Wandering Dev Manager
yesterday
13
Agreed. The answer is "none - we're better off without them" then let management do their management things.
– Lightness Races in Orbit
yesterday
5
Well DonQuiKong one of the best skills of a leader is to be able to delegate upwards. If you can get your boss to do stuff for you, you are truly in charge. Servant Leadership and all that.
– The Wandering Dev Manager
yesterday
4
Interesting take on it. But, AIUI, you don't expect a fired employee to contribute anything in their notice period - in fact, you generally walk them straight out the door.
– Grimm The Opiner
17 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
up vote
117
down vote
I think you are misunderstanding the question from your boss, and over thinking the situation.
Your boss isn't asking how long you want as notice for the person, she actually wants to know what the effect of this person leaving has on your team and delivery.
"I'd say 4 weeks as we'll need X here while we fix that new module they spent 4 months on. No one can work out how it is supposed to work, and if we don't we'll miss the Feb delivery" etc
There should be HR plans around how this will happen by default when a probation doesn't work out. Your boss just wants to make sure that it won't throw a spanner in current plans, as opposed to riding out the person for a little longer to ensure handover.
So just respond on what you need (the person isn't working on anything critical so we can wrap up asap) and leave it to people who's job is to take tough decisions like this.
24
interesting take on the matter, might be worth clarifying this with the boss. This is a definite possibility.
– Kilisi
yesterday
3
Ok, but I would still tell your boss about what you need from person X and let your boss make the decision. If nothing else if person X decided they wanted to sort it out in a court, better to not be having to explain your thoughts there.
– The Wandering Dev Manager
yesterday
13
Agreed. The answer is "none - we're better off without them" then let management do their management things.
– Lightness Races in Orbit
yesterday
5
Well DonQuiKong one of the best skills of a leader is to be able to delegate upwards. If you can get your boss to do stuff for you, you are truly in charge. Servant Leadership and all that.
– The Wandering Dev Manager
yesterday
4
Interesting take on it. But, AIUI, you don't expect a fired employee to contribute anything in their notice period - in fact, you generally walk them straight out the door.
– Grimm The Opiner
17 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
up vote
117
down vote
up vote
117
down vote
I think you are misunderstanding the question from your boss, and over thinking the situation.
Your boss isn't asking how long you want as notice for the person, she actually wants to know what the effect of this person leaving has on your team and delivery.
"I'd say 4 weeks as we'll need X here while we fix that new module they spent 4 months on. No one can work out how it is supposed to work, and if we don't we'll miss the Feb delivery" etc
There should be HR plans around how this will happen by default when a probation doesn't work out. Your boss just wants to make sure that it won't throw a spanner in current plans, as opposed to riding out the person for a little longer to ensure handover.
So just respond on what you need (the person isn't working on anything critical so we can wrap up asap) and leave it to people who's job is to take tough decisions like this.
I think you are misunderstanding the question from your boss, and over thinking the situation.
Your boss isn't asking how long you want as notice for the person, she actually wants to know what the effect of this person leaving has on your team and delivery.
"I'd say 4 weeks as we'll need X here while we fix that new module they spent 4 months on. No one can work out how it is supposed to work, and if we don't we'll miss the Feb delivery" etc
There should be HR plans around how this will happen by default when a probation doesn't work out. Your boss just wants to make sure that it won't throw a spanner in current plans, as opposed to riding out the person for a little longer to ensure handover.
So just respond on what you need (the person isn't working on anything critical so we can wrap up asap) and leave it to people who's job is to take tough decisions like this.
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
The Wandering Dev Manager
30.4k1058110
30.4k1058110
24
interesting take on the matter, might be worth clarifying this with the boss. This is a definite possibility.
– Kilisi
yesterday
3
Ok, but I would still tell your boss about what you need from person X and let your boss make the decision. If nothing else if person X decided they wanted to sort it out in a court, better to not be having to explain your thoughts there.
– The Wandering Dev Manager
yesterday
13
Agreed. The answer is "none - we're better off without them" then let management do their management things.
– Lightness Races in Orbit
yesterday
5
Well DonQuiKong one of the best skills of a leader is to be able to delegate upwards. If you can get your boss to do stuff for you, you are truly in charge. Servant Leadership and all that.
– The Wandering Dev Manager
yesterday
4
Interesting take on it. But, AIUI, you don't expect a fired employee to contribute anything in their notice period - in fact, you generally walk them straight out the door.
– Grimm The Opiner
17 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
24
interesting take on the matter, might be worth clarifying this with the boss. This is a definite possibility.
– Kilisi
yesterday
3
Ok, but I would still tell your boss about what you need from person X and let your boss make the decision. If nothing else if person X decided they wanted to sort it out in a court, better to not be having to explain your thoughts there.
– The Wandering Dev Manager
yesterday
13
Agreed. The answer is "none - we're better off without them" then let management do their management things.
– Lightness Races in Orbit
yesterday
5
Well DonQuiKong one of the best skills of a leader is to be able to delegate upwards. If you can get your boss to do stuff for you, you are truly in charge. Servant Leadership and all that.
– The Wandering Dev Manager
yesterday
4
Interesting take on it. But, AIUI, you don't expect a fired employee to contribute anything in their notice period - in fact, you generally walk them straight out the door.
– Grimm The Opiner
17 hours ago
24
24
interesting take on the matter, might be worth clarifying this with the boss. This is a definite possibility.
– Kilisi
yesterday
interesting take on the matter, might be worth clarifying this with the boss. This is a definite possibility.
– Kilisi
yesterday
3
3
Ok, but I would still tell your boss about what you need from person X and let your boss make the decision. If nothing else if person X decided they wanted to sort it out in a court, better to not be having to explain your thoughts there.
– The Wandering Dev Manager
yesterday
Ok, but I would still tell your boss about what you need from person X and let your boss make the decision. If nothing else if person X decided they wanted to sort it out in a court, better to not be having to explain your thoughts there.
– The Wandering Dev Manager
yesterday
13
13
Agreed. The answer is "none - we're better off without them" then let management do their management things.
– Lightness Races in Orbit
yesterday
Agreed. The answer is "none - we're better off without them" then let management do their management things.
– Lightness Races in Orbit
yesterday
5
5
Well DonQuiKong one of the best skills of a leader is to be able to delegate upwards. If you can get your boss to do stuff for you, you are truly in charge. Servant Leadership and all that.
– The Wandering Dev Manager
yesterday
Well DonQuiKong one of the best skills of a leader is to be able to delegate upwards. If you can get your boss to do stuff for you, you are truly in charge. Servant Leadership and all that.
– The Wandering Dev Manager
yesterday
4
4
Interesting take on it. But, AIUI, you don't expect a fired employee to contribute anything in their notice period - in fact, you generally walk them straight out the door.
– Grimm The Opiner
17 hours ago
Interesting take on it. But, AIUI, you don't expect a fired employee to contribute anything in their notice period - in fact, you generally walk them straight out the door.
– Grimm The Opiner
17 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
up vote
31
down vote
Does a person have to "deserve" their notice period or should it be always given, simply because this is "the right thing to do" or so you don't burn any bridges?
There is no such thing as 'deserve' in business. If it's not contracted, then there is no obligation. Sometimes there is a company policy or even 'norm' that applies.
But not in your case. Which makes this a purely personal decision that we can't make for you. The pros of doing so are all to the benefit of the employee, the cons are all to the detriment of the company. Your problem is whether to let your personal feelings be a factor or not. Professionally you don't without authority, but you have been given the authority so it's up to you.
Hard decisions are why companies need leads and managers but to hit the core of your question, there is no ethical dilemna here with sacking without notice period.
12
I agree business is business but any person you interact with on such a level will be speaking to others (we are in a small market) about you and the business you represent. So if they are treated with respect and regard for their well-being (i.e. not being left on the street just before the holidays), they should be leaving with less hard feelings and just face the truth they weren't a good match. On the other hand, that's not always worth it, because it's on the expense of the company. It shouldn't be paying for incompetent workers.
– JohnSomeone
yesterday
7
@JohnSomeone they have already had several talks and 4 weeks PIP in which time they got worse. They already know the problem, it's not something just sprang out today. They're not owed anything else or have any reason to complain. But a disgruntled employee will complain anyway, nothing can stop that.
– Kilisi
yesterday
1
While I very much agree in this case the employee doesn't seem to be worthy of a notice and is behaving like being fired is inevitable, this answer needs a few caveats. The business that gives no notice in general will find itself on receives no notice in general.
– Joshua
8 hours ago
@Joshua valid point in general
– Kilisi
5 hours ago
To add to this a firing is rarely a total surprise to an employee. Most are smart enough to understand when things aren't working out and their days are numbered. If this guy is struggling as much as you say then I'm sure he sees the writing on the walls.
– Lee Abraham
5 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
31
down vote
Does a person have to "deserve" their notice period or should it be always given, simply because this is "the right thing to do" or so you don't burn any bridges?
There is no such thing as 'deserve' in business. If it's not contracted, then there is no obligation. Sometimes there is a company policy or even 'norm' that applies.
But not in your case. Which makes this a purely personal decision that we can't make for you. The pros of doing so are all to the benefit of the employee, the cons are all to the detriment of the company. Your problem is whether to let your personal feelings be a factor or not. Professionally you don't without authority, but you have been given the authority so it's up to you.
Hard decisions are why companies need leads and managers but to hit the core of your question, there is no ethical dilemna here with sacking without notice period.
12
I agree business is business but any person you interact with on such a level will be speaking to others (we are in a small market) about you and the business you represent. So if they are treated with respect and regard for their well-being (i.e. not being left on the street just before the holidays), they should be leaving with less hard feelings and just face the truth they weren't a good match. On the other hand, that's not always worth it, because it's on the expense of the company. It shouldn't be paying for incompetent workers.
– JohnSomeone
yesterday
7
@JohnSomeone they have already had several talks and 4 weeks PIP in which time they got worse. They already know the problem, it's not something just sprang out today. They're not owed anything else or have any reason to complain. But a disgruntled employee will complain anyway, nothing can stop that.
– Kilisi
yesterday
1
While I very much agree in this case the employee doesn't seem to be worthy of a notice and is behaving like being fired is inevitable, this answer needs a few caveats. The business that gives no notice in general will find itself on receives no notice in general.
– Joshua
8 hours ago
@Joshua valid point in general
– Kilisi
5 hours ago
To add to this a firing is rarely a total surprise to an employee. Most are smart enough to understand when things aren't working out and their days are numbered. If this guy is struggling as much as you say then I'm sure he sees the writing on the walls.
– Lee Abraham
5 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
31
down vote
up vote
31
down vote
Does a person have to "deserve" their notice period or should it be always given, simply because this is "the right thing to do" or so you don't burn any bridges?
There is no such thing as 'deserve' in business. If it's not contracted, then there is no obligation. Sometimes there is a company policy or even 'norm' that applies.
But not in your case. Which makes this a purely personal decision that we can't make for you. The pros of doing so are all to the benefit of the employee, the cons are all to the detriment of the company. Your problem is whether to let your personal feelings be a factor or not. Professionally you don't without authority, but you have been given the authority so it's up to you.
Hard decisions are why companies need leads and managers but to hit the core of your question, there is no ethical dilemna here with sacking without notice period.
Does a person have to "deserve" their notice period or should it be always given, simply because this is "the right thing to do" or so you don't burn any bridges?
There is no such thing as 'deserve' in business. If it's not contracted, then there is no obligation. Sometimes there is a company policy or even 'norm' that applies.
But not in your case. Which makes this a purely personal decision that we can't make for you. The pros of doing so are all to the benefit of the employee, the cons are all to the detriment of the company. Your problem is whether to let your personal feelings be a factor or not. Professionally you don't without authority, but you have been given the authority so it's up to you.
Hard decisions are why companies need leads and managers but to hit the core of your question, there is no ethical dilemna here with sacking without notice period.
answered yesterday
Kilisi
109k61246425
109k61246425
12
I agree business is business but any person you interact with on such a level will be speaking to others (we are in a small market) about you and the business you represent. So if they are treated with respect and regard for their well-being (i.e. not being left on the street just before the holidays), they should be leaving with less hard feelings and just face the truth they weren't a good match. On the other hand, that's not always worth it, because it's on the expense of the company. It shouldn't be paying for incompetent workers.
– JohnSomeone
yesterday
7
@JohnSomeone they have already had several talks and 4 weeks PIP in which time they got worse. They already know the problem, it's not something just sprang out today. They're not owed anything else or have any reason to complain. But a disgruntled employee will complain anyway, nothing can stop that.
– Kilisi
yesterday
1
While I very much agree in this case the employee doesn't seem to be worthy of a notice and is behaving like being fired is inevitable, this answer needs a few caveats. The business that gives no notice in general will find itself on receives no notice in general.
– Joshua
8 hours ago
@Joshua valid point in general
– Kilisi
5 hours ago
To add to this a firing is rarely a total surprise to an employee. Most are smart enough to understand when things aren't working out and their days are numbered. If this guy is struggling as much as you say then I'm sure he sees the writing on the walls.
– Lee Abraham
5 hours ago
add a comment |
12
I agree business is business but any person you interact with on such a level will be speaking to others (we are in a small market) about you and the business you represent. So if they are treated with respect and regard for their well-being (i.e. not being left on the street just before the holidays), they should be leaving with less hard feelings and just face the truth they weren't a good match. On the other hand, that's not always worth it, because it's on the expense of the company. It shouldn't be paying for incompetent workers.
– JohnSomeone
yesterday
7
@JohnSomeone they have already had several talks and 4 weeks PIP in which time they got worse. They already know the problem, it's not something just sprang out today. They're not owed anything else or have any reason to complain. But a disgruntled employee will complain anyway, nothing can stop that.
– Kilisi
yesterday
1
While I very much agree in this case the employee doesn't seem to be worthy of a notice and is behaving like being fired is inevitable, this answer needs a few caveats. The business that gives no notice in general will find itself on receives no notice in general.
– Joshua
8 hours ago
@Joshua valid point in general
– Kilisi
5 hours ago
To add to this a firing is rarely a total surprise to an employee. Most are smart enough to understand when things aren't working out and their days are numbered. If this guy is struggling as much as you say then I'm sure he sees the writing on the walls.
– Lee Abraham
5 hours ago
12
12
I agree business is business but any person you interact with on such a level will be speaking to others (we are in a small market) about you and the business you represent. So if they are treated with respect and regard for their well-being (i.e. not being left on the street just before the holidays), they should be leaving with less hard feelings and just face the truth they weren't a good match. On the other hand, that's not always worth it, because it's on the expense of the company. It shouldn't be paying for incompetent workers.
– JohnSomeone
yesterday
I agree business is business but any person you interact with on such a level will be speaking to others (we are in a small market) about you and the business you represent. So if they are treated with respect and regard for their well-being (i.e. not being left on the street just before the holidays), they should be leaving with less hard feelings and just face the truth they weren't a good match. On the other hand, that's not always worth it, because it's on the expense of the company. It shouldn't be paying for incompetent workers.
– JohnSomeone
yesterday
7
7
@JohnSomeone they have already had several talks and 4 weeks PIP in which time they got worse. They already know the problem, it's not something just sprang out today. They're not owed anything else or have any reason to complain. But a disgruntled employee will complain anyway, nothing can stop that.
– Kilisi
yesterday
@JohnSomeone they have already had several talks and 4 weeks PIP in which time they got worse. They already know the problem, it's not something just sprang out today. They're not owed anything else or have any reason to complain. But a disgruntled employee will complain anyway, nothing can stop that.
– Kilisi
yesterday
1
1
While I very much agree in this case the employee doesn't seem to be worthy of a notice and is behaving like being fired is inevitable, this answer needs a few caveats. The business that gives no notice in general will find itself on receives no notice in general.
– Joshua
8 hours ago
While I very much agree in this case the employee doesn't seem to be worthy of a notice and is behaving like being fired is inevitable, this answer needs a few caveats. The business that gives no notice in general will find itself on receives no notice in general.
– Joshua
8 hours ago
@Joshua valid point in general
– Kilisi
5 hours ago
@Joshua valid point in general
– Kilisi
5 hours ago
To add to this a firing is rarely a total surprise to an employee. Most are smart enough to understand when things aren't working out and their days are numbered. If this guy is struggling as much as you say then I'm sure he sees the writing on the walls.
– Lee Abraham
5 hours ago
To add to this a firing is rarely a total surprise to an employee. Most are smart enough to understand when things aren't working out and their days are numbered. If this guy is struggling as much as you say then I'm sure he sees the writing on the walls.
– Lee Abraham
5 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
17
down vote
Give the employee a notice period that is standard in your company. You will not regret it in a long (enough) term.
10
Sometimes the simple answer is best. I've been in a situation where people were fired with no notice, and the hit to the morale of the rest of the team was worse than just paying two weeks would have been (especially as the first person fired wasn't even well liked, and we would probably have held a party if they had left under less brutal circumstances...the second person was well liked, after which point everyone began updating resumes asap).
– user3067860
yesterday
I would normally agree, but my company has a whole month of standard notice period, plus it was made clear to the employee they were not doing a good enough job, months in advance. Being put on a PIP should have served as a notice period of a sort, or I was hoping so. Finally, everyone on the team could see this person was not performing, so firing them doesn't happen out of the blue. But I do understand your point - people would like to know that if they don't perform, they can still get humane treatment.
– JohnSomeone
19 hours ago
3
@JohnSomeone: I didn’t want to be explicit but humane treatment is the core point. Be the noble one and put it all behind you. @user3067860’s reason is good too and highlights the effects of the same action from the business perspective.
– displayName
19 hours ago
2
Don't give notice, give severance (or, if you're feeling kind, keep "employing" them for a month or two and tell them not to come in so they can stay on your insurance). You don't want to keep a fired employee around because of the risk of sabotage or tension, and you won't get much productivity out of them anyway. cc @JohnSomeone
– Kevin
5 hours ago
@JohnSomeone: Also, armed with the new knowledge of how your current rules have played out in this case, go ahead and update the rules after this case is over.
– displayName
12 mins ago
add a comment |
up vote
17
down vote
Give the employee a notice period that is standard in your company. You will not regret it in a long (enough) term.
10
Sometimes the simple answer is best. I've been in a situation where people were fired with no notice, and the hit to the morale of the rest of the team was worse than just paying two weeks would have been (especially as the first person fired wasn't even well liked, and we would probably have held a party if they had left under less brutal circumstances...the second person was well liked, after which point everyone began updating resumes asap).
– user3067860
yesterday
I would normally agree, but my company has a whole month of standard notice period, plus it was made clear to the employee they were not doing a good enough job, months in advance. Being put on a PIP should have served as a notice period of a sort, or I was hoping so. Finally, everyone on the team could see this person was not performing, so firing them doesn't happen out of the blue. But I do understand your point - people would like to know that if they don't perform, they can still get humane treatment.
– JohnSomeone
19 hours ago
3
@JohnSomeone: I didn’t want to be explicit but humane treatment is the core point. Be the noble one and put it all behind you. @user3067860’s reason is good too and highlights the effects of the same action from the business perspective.
– displayName
19 hours ago
2
Don't give notice, give severance (or, if you're feeling kind, keep "employing" them for a month or two and tell them not to come in so they can stay on your insurance). You don't want to keep a fired employee around because of the risk of sabotage or tension, and you won't get much productivity out of them anyway. cc @JohnSomeone
– Kevin
5 hours ago
@JohnSomeone: Also, armed with the new knowledge of how your current rules have played out in this case, go ahead and update the rules after this case is over.
– displayName
12 mins ago
add a comment |
up vote
17
down vote
up vote
17
down vote
Give the employee a notice period that is standard in your company. You will not regret it in a long (enough) term.
Give the employee a notice period that is standard in your company. You will not regret it in a long (enough) term.
edited 20 hours ago
answered yesterday
displayName
458210
458210
10
Sometimes the simple answer is best. I've been in a situation where people were fired with no notice, and the hit to the morale of the rest of the team was worse than just paying two weeks would have been (especially as the first person fired wasn't even well liked, and we would probably have held a party if they had left under less brutal circumstances...the second person was well liked, after which point everyone began updating resumes asap).
– user3067860
yesterday
I would normally agree, but my company has a whole month of standard notice period, plus it was made clear to the employee they were not doing a good enough job, months in advance. Being put on a PIP should have served as a notice period of a sort, or I was hoping so. Finally, everyone on the team could see this person was not performing, so firing them doesn't happen out of the blue. But I do understand your point - people would like to know that if they don't perform, they can still get humane treatment.
– JohnSomeone
19 hours ago
3
@JohnSomeone: I didn’t want to be explicit but humane treatment is the core point. Be the noble one and put it all behind you. @user3067860’s reason is good too and highlights the effects of the same action from the business perspective.
– displayName
19 hours ago
2
Don't give notice, give severance (or, if you're feeling kind, keep "employing" them for a month or two and tell them not to come in so they can stay on your insurance). You don't want to keep a fired employee around because of the risk of sabotage or tension, and you won't get much productivity out of them anyway. cc @JohnSomeone
– Kevin
5 hours ago
@JohnSomeone: Also, armed with the new knowledge of how your current rules have played out in this case, go ahead and update the rules after this case is over.
– displayName
12 mins ago
add a comment |
10
Sometimes the simple answer is best. I've been in a situation where people were fired with no notice, and the hit to the morale of the rest of the team was worse than just paying two weeks would have been (especially as the first person fired wasn't even well liked, and we would probably have held a party if they had left under less brutal circumstances...the second person was well liked, after which point everyone began updating resumes asap).
– user3067860
yesterday
I would normally agree, but my company has a whole month of standard notice period, plus it was made clear to the employee they were not doing a good enough job, months in advance. Being put on a PIP should have served as a notice period of a sort, or I was hoping so. Finally, everyone on the team could see this person was not performing, so firing them doesn't happen out of the blue. But I do understand your point - people would like to know that if they don't perform, they can still get humane treatment.
– JohnSomeone
19 hours ago
3
@JohnSomeone: I didn’t want to be explicit but humane treatment is the core point. Be the noble one and put it all behind you. @user3067860’s reason is good too and highlights the effects of the same action from the business perspective.
– displayName
19 hours ago
2
Don't give notice, give severance (or, if you're feeling kind, keep "employing" them for a month or two and tell them not to come in so they can stay on your insurance). You don't want to keep a fired employee around because of the risk of sabotage or tension, and you won't get much productivity out of them anyway. cc @JohnSomeone
– Kevin
5 hours ago
@JohnSomeone: Also, armed with the new knowledge of how your current rules have played out in this case, go ahead and update the rules after this case is over.
– displayName
12 mins ago
10
10
Sometimes the simple answer is best. I've been in a situation where people were fired with no notice, and the hit to the morale of the rest of the team was worse than just paying two weeks would have been (especially as the first person fired wasn't even well liked, and we would probably have held a party if they had left under less brutal circumstances...the second person was well liked, after which point everyone began updating resumes asap).
– user3067860
yesterday
Sometimes the simple answer is best. I've been in a situation where people were fired with no notice, and the hit to the morale of the rest of the team was worse than just paying two weeks would have been (especially as the first person fired wasn't even well liked, and we would probably have held a party if they had left under less brutal circumstances...the second person was well liked, after which point everyone began updating resumes asap).
– user3067860
yesterday
I would normally agree, but my company has a whole month of standard notice period, plus it was made clear to the employee they were not doing a good enough job, months in advance. Being put on a PIP should have served as a notice period of a sort, or I was hoping so. Finally, everyone on the team could see this person was not performing, so firing them doesn't happen out of the blue. But I do understand your point - people would like to know that if they don't perform, they can still get humane treatment.
– JohnSomeone
19 hours ago
I would normally agree, but my company has a whole month of standard notice period, plus it was made clear to the employee they were not doing a good enough job, months in advance. Being put on a PIP should have served as a notice period of a sort, or I was hoping so. Finally, everyone on the team could see this person was not performing, so firing them doesn't happen out of the blue. But I do understand your point - people would like to know that if they don't perform, they can still get humane treatment.
– JohnSomeone
19 hours ago
3
3
@JohnSomeone: I didn’t want to be explicit but humane treatment is the core point. Be the noble one and put it all behind you. @user3067860’s reason is good too and highlights the effects of the same action from the business perspective.
– displayName
19 hours ago
@JohnSomeone: I didn’t want to be explicit but humane treatment is the core point. Be the noble one and put it all behind you. @user3067860’s reason is good too and highlights the effects of the same action from the business perspective.
– displayName
19 hours ago
2
2
Don't give notice, give severance (or, if you're feeling kind, keep "employing" them for a month or two and tell them not to come in so they can stay on your insurance). You don't want to keep a fired employee around because of the risk of sabotage or tension, and you won't get much productivity out of them anyway. cc @JohnSomeone
– Kevin
5 hours ago
Don't give notice, give severance (or, if you're feeling kind, keep "employing" them for a month or two and tell them not to come in so they can stay on your insurance). You don't want to keep a fired employee around because of the risk of sabotage or tension, and you won't get much productivity out of them anyway. cc @JohnSomeone
– Kevin
5 hours ago
@JohnSomeone: Also, armed with the new knowledge of how your current rules have played out in this case, go ahead and update the rules after this case is over.
– displayName
12 mins ago
@JohnSomeone: Also, armed with the new knowledge of how your current rules have played out in this case, go ahead and update the rules after this case is over.
– displayName
12 mins ago
add a comment |
up vote
15
down vote
It seems you found an employee who is sadly totally incapable of doing their job. You gave them a lot of chances to improve, and they didn't - quite the opposite.
The last weeks seem to be the effect of what I would recommend to any employee: If you feel you are on the way out, don't worry about the old company, getting a new job should have priority. Sure that's bad for the employer, but if the employee asks, I will say what's best for the employee.
As far as OP is concerned: Ethically you are absolutely fine of letting him go without notice. Obviously check that your boss, HR, and the laws of your country agree with it. Your boss will of course want to know if the employee leaving tomorrow will cause any problems; apparently it won't and your team's productivity won't be harmed so that's fine.
add a comment |
up vote
15
down vote
It seems you found an employee who is sadly totally incapable of doing their job. You gave them a lot of chances to improve, and they didn't - quite the opposite.
The last weeks seem to be the effect of what I would recommend to any employee: If you feel you are on the way out, don't worry about the old company, getting a new job should have priority. Sure that's bad for the employer, but if the employee asks, I will say what's best for the employee.
As far as OP is concerned: Ethically you are absolutely fine of letting him go without notice. Obviously check that your boss, HR, and the laws of your country agree with it. Your boss will of course want to know if the employee leaving tomorrow will cause any problems; apparently it won't and your team's productivity won't be harmed so that's fine.
add a comment |
up vote
15
down vote
up vote
15
down vote
It seems you found an employee who is sadly totally incapable of doing their job. You gave them a lot of chances to improve, and they didn't - quite the opposite.
The last weeks seem to be the effect of what I would recommend to any employee: If you feel you are on the way out, don't worry about the old company, getting a new job should have priority. Sure that's bad for the employer, but if the employee asks, I will say what's best for the employee.
As far as OP is concerned: Ethically you are absolutely fine of letting him go without notice. Obviously check that your boss, HR, and the laws of your country agree with it. Your boss will of course want to know if the employee leaving tomorrow will cause any problems; apparently it won't and your team's productivity won't be harmed so that's fine.
It seems you found an employee who is sadly totally incapable of doing their job. You gave them a lot of chances to improve, and they didn't - quite the opposite.
The last weeks seem to be the effect of what I would recommend to any employee: If you feel you are on the way out, don't worry about the old company, getting a new job should have priority. Sure that's bad for the employer, but if the employee asks, I will say what's best for the employee.
As far as OP is concerned: Ethically you are absolutely fine of letting him go without notice. Obviously check that your boss, HR, and the laws of your country agree with it. Your boss will of course want to know if the employee leaving tomorrow will cause any problems; apparently it won't and your team's productivity won't be harmed so that's fine.
answered yesterday
gnasher729
80.1k34145253
80.1k34145253
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
11
down vote
I'm new at leading teams
I think that your performance as an inexperienced leader may've also been a contributing factor to the situation your employee is facing right now.
If teams share in their success, then they must also share in their failures.
While this does not excuse the employee, you and your team should see this situation as a team failure. Take a long hard look at the things that you and your team will do to avoid this kind of team failure from repeating itself in the future with another new-hire.
Teams must set themselves up for success.
Does a person have to "deserve" their notice period or should it be always given, simply because this is "the right thing to do" or so you don't burn any bridges?
What I think people "deserve" is to be treated with respect, dignity, and professionalism. That's not to say that you must "agree" or "celebrate" their behavior; they're different things.
At my workplace, there was an intern that, according to management, was under-performing. (I didn't see this myself, as I was a new-hire at the time on a different team.)
He was still given a notice period because that is The Right Thing to Do™. The notice period was roughly two weeks, from what I recall. The company took a quantified 2 week "hit", but that was it.
On the other hand, this is what happened when the company laid off ~%2 of its workforce earlier this year. There was no notice period; it was "effective immediately". Well, the employees that were left behind were not happy at all with how the company had treated their "valued" employees [1], and that created a significant amount of distrust and can still be felt today and was reflected in company surveys of "leadership".
When a company shows that it is all talk (e.g. "we value our employees", we "always strive to do what's right", etc), and companies usually like to parrot these things, but then pull a stunt like this, then the company is, by actions, showing how hypocritical it is towards its own "valued" employees. Some employees that had not been laid off chose to leave later in the year anyway.
The point of this is that, whether you have a contract obligation or not, as a leader, you need to take into account the impact of your actions. Besides, it's not like employees get offered contracts that favor them in any way; the contracts that companies provide are entirely one-sided, making the "we're not required to do this by contract" excuse a textbook example of begging the question.
Therefore, with this in mind, you must understand that, had employees really been able to have an actual choice, they would've certainly liked to get some sort of notice.
Look at it the other way around: Suppose your employees have no requirement to give you a 2 week notice before leaving, and they leave you in a tough spot, what would you think about it? In short, treat others the same way you'd like others to treat you. End of story.
[1] And these weren't even under-performers; it was due to bad management decisions that put the company in a tough financial spot. But hey, at least now I know what kind of "loyalty" I can expect from my company in the future, right?
How do you get a person to understand you're serious about taking action regarding their poor performance, so they improve (or seek another job they'd be a better fit for) instead of getting fired?
I think your approach as a leader sets the tone of the conversation. Perception, clarity, and straightforwardness go a long way, and if your company has the kind of culture where everything is too political and everyone must read "between the lines", then perhaps you could've been more up front and explicit about the situation.
However, I don't know what was said or how it was communicated, so you'll need to keep this in mind, especially if someone is not yet used to the company culture and the true meanings behind certain things.
For example, at a former employer, they'd have a tendency to say "That's a great idea" to things they had no interest in, so I got burned a few times because of that disingenuous nonsense, since saying "We can't work on that at this time" or something to that effect would've been better by not causing confusion. I assume you get my point.
How do you decide (and at what point) that a person is not good, rather than simply not used to a new job, so you can take action to get them off the team?
I don't think there's a hard-and-fast rule for this, such as "always wait X months". You must account for the actual background of the person and the actual tasks that you gave him.
For example, at a former employer, I had been interviewed as a firmware engineer, but then spent the 1st year doing the work of a firmware test engineer.
As I stated in my comment under OP, this was a bait-and-switch, which contributed to frustration, lack of motivation, and being generally upset for a while. However, I did not take this as an excuse to under-perform (I did quite well, actually) and later moved on to do software engineering work, but you must at least be aware of whether this did or didn't happen at your company with that employee and how that might've contributed, if it happened at all.
In my experience, depending on the kind of work (and actual effectiveness of any help received, if any), the complexity of existing systems could require devs to spend anywhere between 3 - 12 months to become reasonably effective at something. (Again, depending on actual complexity, and mentorship, etc.)
As someone who has mentored interns several times, I can say that I've seen some do well and others not-so-well for different reasons.
An intern that didn't so too well had been, unfortunately, set up for failure by a more senior engineer who severely under-estimated the complexity of the project to which the intern was assigned.
This, in combination with the intern's attitude problem (probably a side-effect of frustration), ended up contributing to his failure. While I didn't mentor this particular intern, I don't think I would've been able to do much either, given the situation.
In summary, based on my experience, in many (not all) cases, employee failures are as much the fault of the employee as it is the fault of management and leadership within the same company. Only you can take an honest look at this and see what does and doesn't apply.
+1, though (unless you know more than you've indicated) it may be misleading to say that in the case of the layoff, "There was no notice period; it was 'effective immediately'." When companies I've worked at have laid people off, they've paid those people "severance" equivalent to multiple weeks' salary. I think that's actually better than a notice period, but it can look worse to people who don't realize that such severance was paid.
– ruakh
21 hours ago
@ruakh Thanks. When we spoke to some of those affected, they confirmed they had received no notice period. It caught all of them by surprise. I wouldn't have said they received no notice period if I really didn't know what had happened.
– code_dredd
21 hours ago
I think you may have misunderstood my comment. I'm not challenging your claim that they received no notice; rather, I'm raising the possibility that they received severance pay. If they did receive severance pay, then it's misleading to say only that they received no notice.
– ruakh
21 hours ago
@ruakh I think receiving severance pay and receiving notice period are two separate things. For example, I've had friends receive both the notice period and severance pay afterwards. Therefore, I disagree with the claim that I'm being "misleading".
– code_dredd
21 hours ago
4
If they had gotten severance pay the thing would not be as onesided, because the employees were not simply let go but had a kind of compensation. Also I would agree, I'd prefer severance pay without notice period above notice period without severance. Getting both being the best, ofc.
– Philipp
19 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
up vote
11
down vote
I'm new at leading teams
I think that your performance as an inexperienced leader may've also been a contributing factor to the situation your employee is facing right now.
If teams share in their success, then they must also share in their failures.
While this does not excuse the employee, you and your team should see this situation as a team failure. Take a long hard look at the things that you and your team will do to avoid this kind of team failure from repeating itself in the future with another new-hire.
Teams must set themselves up for success.
Does a person have to "deserve" their notice period or should it be always given, simply because this is "the right thing to do" or so you don't burn any bridges?
What I think people "deserve" is to be treated with respect, dignity, and professionalism. That's not to say that you must "agree" or "celebrate" their behavior; they're different things.
At my workplace, there was an intern that, according to management, was under-performing. (I didn't see this myself, as I was a new-hire at the time on a different team.)
He was still given a notice period because that is The Right Thing to Do™. The notice period was roughly two weeks, from what I recall. The company took a quantified 2 week "hit", but that was it.
On the other hand, this is what happened when the company laid off ~%2 of its workforce earlier this year. There was no notice period; it was "effective immediately". Well, the employees that were left behind were not happy at all with how the company had treated their "valued" employees [1], and that created a significant amount of distrust and can still be felt today and was reflected in company surveys of "leadership".
When a company shows that it is all talk (e.g. "we value our employees", we "always strive to do what's right", etc), and companies usually like to parrot these things, but then pull a stunt like this, then the company is, by actions, showing how hypocritical it is towards its own "valued" employees. Some employees that had not been laid off chose to leave later in the year anyway.
The point of this is that, whether you have a contract obligation or not, as a leader, you need to take into account the impact of your actions. Besides, it's not like employees get offered contracts that favor them in any way; the contracts that companies provide are entirely one-sided, making the "we're not required to do this by contract" excuse a textbook example of begging the question.
Therefore, with this in mind, you must understand that, had employees really been able to have an actual choice, they would've certainly liked to get some sort of notice.
Look at it the other way around: Suppose your employees have no requirement to give you a 2 week notice before leaving, and they leave you in a tough spot, what would you think about it? In short, treat others the same way you'd like others to treat you. End of story.
[1] And these weren't even under-performers; it was due to bad management decisions that put the company in a tough financial spot. But hey, at least now I know what kind of "loyalty" I can expect from my company in the future, right?
How do you get a person to understand you're serious about taking action regarding their poor performance, so they improve (or seek another job they'd be a better fit for) instead of getting fired?
I think your approach as a leader sets the tone of the conversation. Perception, clarity, and straightforwardness go a long way, and if your company has the kind of culture where everything is too political and everyone must read "between the lines", then perhaps you could've been more up front and explicit about the situation.
However, I don't know what was said or how it was communicated, so you'll need to keep this in mind, especially if someone is not yet used to the company culture and the true meanings behind certain things.
For example, at a former employer, they'd have a tendency to say "That's a great idea" to things they had no interest in, so I got burned a few times because of that disingenuous nonsense, since saying "We can't work on that at this time" or something to that effect would've been better by not causing confusion. I assume you get my point.
How do you decide (and at what point) that a person is not good, rather than simply not used to a new job, so you can take action to get them off the team?
I don't think there's a hard-and-fast rule for this, such as "always wait X months". You must account for the actual background of the person and the actual tasks that you gave him.
For example, at a former employer, I had been interviewed as a firmware engineer, but then spent the 1st year doing the work of a firmware test engineer.
As I stated in my comment under OP, this was a bait-and-switch, which contributed to frustration, lack of motivation, and being generally upset for a while. However, I did not take this as an excuse to under-perform (I did quite well, actually) and later moved on to do software engineering work, but you must at least be aware of whether this did or didn't happen at your company with that employee and how that might've contributed, if it happened at all.
In my experience, depending on the kind of work (and actual effectiveness of any help received, if any), the complexity of existing systems could require devs to spend anywhere between 3 - 12 months to become reasonably effective at something. (Again, depending on actual complexity, and mentorship, etc.)
As someone who has mentored interns several times, I can say that I've seen some do well and others not-so-well for different reasons.
An intern that didn't so too well had been, unfortunately, set up for failure by a more senior engineer who severely under-estimated the complexity of the project to which the intern was assigned.
This, in combination with the intern's attitude problem (probably a side-effect of frustration), ended up contributing to his failure. While I didn't mentor this particular intern, I don't think I would've been able to do much either, given the situation.
In summary, based on my experience, in many (not all) cases, employee failures are as much the fault of the employee as it is the fault of management and leadership within the same company. Only you can take an honest look at this and see what does and doesn't apply.
+1, though (unless you know more than you've indicated) it may be misleading to say that in the case of the layoff, "There was no notice period; it was 'effective immediately'." When companies I've worked at have laid people off, they've paid those people "severance" equivalent to multiple weeks' salary. I think that's actually better than a notice period, but it can look worse to people who don't realize that such severance was paid.
– ruakh
21 hours ago
@ruakh Thanks. When we spoke to some of those affected, they confirmed they had received no notice period. It caught all of them by surprise. I wouldn't have said they received no notice period if I really didn't know what had happened.
– code_dredd
21 hours ago
I think you may have misunderstood my comment. I'm not challenging your claim that they received no notice; rather, I'm raising the possibility that they received severance pay. If they did receive severance pay, then it's misleading to say only that they received no notice.
– ruakh
21 hours ago
@ruakh I think receiving severance pay and receiving notice period are two separate things. For example, I've had friends receive both the notice period and severance pay afterwards. Therefore, I disagree with the claim that I'm being "misleading".
– code_dredd
21 hours ago
4
If they had gotten severance pay the thing would not be as onesided, because the employees were not simply let go but had a kind of compensation. Also I would agree, I'd prefer severance pay without notice period above notice period without severance. Getting both being the best, ofc.
– Philipp
19 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
up vote
11
down vote
up vote
11
down vote
I'm new at leading teams
I think that your performance as an inexperienced leader may've also been a contributing factor to the situation your employee is facing right now.
If teams share in their success, then they must also share in their failures.
While this does not excuse the employee, you and your team should see this situation as a team failure. Take a long hard look at the things that you and your team will do to avoid this kind of team failure from repeating itself in the future with another new-hire.
Teams must set themselves up for success.
Does a person have to "deserve" their notice period or should it be always given, simply because this is "the right thing to do" or so you don't burn any bridges?
What I think people "deserve" is to be treated with respect, dignity, and professionalism. That's not to say that you must "agree" or "celebrate" their behavior; they're different things.
At my workplace, there was an intern that, according to management, was under-performing. (I didn't see this myself, as I was a new-hire at the time on a different team.)
He was still given a notice period because that is The Right Thing to Do™. The notice period was roughly two weeks, from what I recall. The company took a quantified 2 week "hit", but that was it.
On the other hand, this is what happened when the company laid off ~%2 of its workforce earlier this year. There was no notice period; it was "effective immediately". Well, the employees that were left behind were not happy at all with how the company had treated their "valued" employees [1], and that created a significant amount of distrust and can still be felt today and was reflected in company surveys of "leadership".
When a company shows that it is all talk (e.g. "we value our employees", we "always strive to do what's right", etc), and companies usually like to parrot these things, but then pull a stunt like this, then the company is, by actions, showing how hypocritical it is towards its own "valued" employees. Some employees that had not been laid off chose to leave later in the year anyway.
The point of this is that, whether you have a contract obligation or not, as a leader, you need to take into account the impact of your actions. Besides, it's not like employees get offered contracts that favor them in any way; the contracts that companies provide are entirely one-sided, making the "we're not required to do this by contract" excuse a textbook example of begging the question.
Therefore, with this in mind, you must understand that, had employees really been able to have an actual choice, they would've certainly liked to get some sort of notice.
Look at it the other way around: Suppose your employees have no requirement to give you a 2 week notice before leaving, and they leave you in a tough spot, what would you think about it? In short, treat others the same way you'd like others to treat you. End of story.
[1] And these weren't even under-performers; it was due to bad management decisions that put the company in a tough financial spot. But hey, at least now I know what kind of "loyalty" I can expect from my company in the future, right?
How do you get a person to understand you're serious about taking action regarding their poor performance, so they improve (or seek another job they'd be a better fit for) instead of getting fired?
I think your approach as a leader sets the tone of the conversation. Perception, clarity, and straightforwardness go a long way, and if your company has the kind of culture where everything is too political and everyone must read "between the lines", then perhaps you could've been more up front and explicit about the situation.
However, I don't know what was said or how it was communicated, so you'll need to keep this in mind, especially if someone is not yet used to the company culture and the true meanings behind certain things.
For example, at a former employer, they'd have a tendency to say "That's a great idea" to things they had no interest in, so I got burned a few times because of that disingenuous nonsense, since saying "We can't work on that at this time" or something to that effect would've been better by not causing confusion. I assume you get my point.
How do you decide (and at what point) that a person is not good, rather than simply not used to a new job, so you can take action to get them off the team?
I don't think there's a hard-and-fast rule for this, such as "always wait X months". You must account for the actual background of the person and the actual tasks that you gave him.
For example, at a former employer, I had been interviewed as a firmware engineer, but then spent the 1st year doing the work of a firmware test engineer.
As I stated in my comment under OP, this was a bait-and-switch, which contributed to frustration, lack of motivation, and being generally upset for a while. However, I did not take this as an excuse to under-perform (I did quite well, actually) and later moved on to do software engineering work, but you must at least be aware of whether this did or didn't happen at your company with that employee and how that might've contributed, if it happened at all.
In my experience, depending on the kind of work (and actual effectiveness of any help received, if any), the complexity of existing systems could require devs to spend anywhere between 3 - 12 months to become reasonably effective at something. (Again, depending on actual complexity, and mentorship, etc.)
As someone who has mentored interns several times, I can say that I've seen some do well and others not-so-well for different reasons.
An intern that didn't so too well had been, unfortunately, set up for failure by a more senior engineer who severely under-estimated the complexity of the project to which the intern was assigned.
This, in combination with the intern's attitude problem (probably a side-effect of frustration), ended up contributing to his failure. While I didn't mentor this particular intern, I don't think I would've been able to do much either, given the situation.
In summary, based on my experience, in many (not all) cases, employee failures are as much the fault of the employee as it is the fault of management and leadership within the same company. Only you can take an honest look at this and see what does and doesn't apply.
I'm new at leading teams
I think that your performance as an inexperienced leader may've also been a contributing factor to the situation your employee is facing right now.
If teams share in their success, then they must also share in their failures.
While this does not excuse the employee, you and your team should see this situation as a team failure. Take a long hard look at the things that you and your team will do to avoid this kind of team failure from repeating itself in the future with another new-hire.
Teams must set themselves up for success.
Does a person have to "deserve" their notice period or should it be always given, simply because this is "the right thing to do" or so you don't burn any bridges?
What I think people "deserve" is to be treated with respect, dignity, and professionalism. That's not to say that you must "agree" or "celebrate" their behavior; they're different things.
At my workplace, there was an intern that, according to management, was under-performing. (I didn't see this myself, as I was a new-hire at the time on a different team.)
He was still given a notice period because that is The Right Thing to Do™. The notice period was roughly two weeks, from what I recall. The company took a quantified 2 week "hit", but that was it.
On the other hand, this is what happened when the company laid off ~%2 of its workforce earlier this year. There was no notice period; it was "effective immediately". Well, the employees that were left behind were not happy at all with how the company had treated their "valued" employees [1], and that created a significant amount of distrust and can still be felt today and was reflected in company surveys of "leadership".
When a company shows that it is all talk (e.g. "we value our employees", we "always strive to do what's right", etc), and companies usually like to parrot these things, but then pull a stunt like this, then the company is, by actions, showing how hypocritical it is towards its own "valued" employees. Some employees that had not been laid off chose to leave later in the year anyway.
The point of this is that, whether you have a contract obligation or not, as a leader, you need to take into account the impact of your actions. Besides, it's not like employees get offered contracts that favor them in any way; the contracts that companies provide are entirely one-sided, making the "we're not required to do this by contract" excuse a textbook example of begging the question.
Therefore, with this in mind, you must understand that, had employees really been able to have an actual choice, they would've certainly liked to get some sort of notice.
Look at it the other way around: Suppose your employees have no requirement to give you a 2 week notice before leaving, and they leave you in a tough spot, what would you think about it? In short, treat others the same way you'd like others to treat you. End of story.
[1] And these weren't even under-performers; it was due to bad management decisions that put the company in a tough financial spot. But hey, at least now I know what kind of "loyalty" I can expect from my company in the future, right?
How do you get a person to understand you're serious about taking action regarding their poor performance, so they improve (or seek another job they'd be a better fit for) instead of getting fired?
I think your approach as a leader sets the tone of the conversation. Perception, clarity, and straightforwardness go a long way, and if your company has the kind of culture where everything is too political and everyone must read "between the lines", then perhaps you could've been more up front and explicit about the situation.
However, I don't know what was said or how it was communicated, so you'll need to keep this in mind, especially if someone is not yet used to the company culture and the true meanings behind certain things.
For example, at a former employer, they'd have a tendency to say "That's a great idea" to things they had no interest in, so I got burned a few times because of that disingenuous nonsense, since saying "We can't work on that at this time" or something to that effect would've been better by not causing confusion. I assume you get my point.
How do you decide (and at what point) that a person is not good, rather than simply not used to a new job, so you can take action to get them off the team?
I don't think there's a hard-and-fast rule for this, such as "always wait X months". You must account for the actual background of the person and the actual tasks that you gave him.
For example, at a former employer, I had been interviewed as a firmware engineer, but then spent the 1st year doing the work of a firmware test engineer.
As I stated in my comment under OP, this was a bait-and-switch, which contributed to frustration, lack of motivation, and being generally upset for a while. However, I did not take this as an excuse to under-perform (I did quite well, actually) and later moved on to do software engineering work, but you must at least be aware of whether this did or didn't happen at your company with that employee and how that might've contributed, if it happened at all.
In my experience, depending on the kind of work (and actual effectiveness of any help received, if any), the complexity of existing systems could require devs to spend anywhere between 3 - 12 months to become reasonably effective at something. (Again, depending on actual complexity, and mentorship, etc.)
As someone who has mentored interns several times, I can say that I've seen some do well and others not-so-well for different reasons.
An intern that didn't so too well had been, unfortunately, set up for failure by a more senior engineer who severely under-estimated the complexity of the project to which the intern was assigned.
This, in combination with the intern's attitude problem (probably a side-effect of frustration), ended up contributing to his failure. While I didn't mentor this particular intern, I don't think I would've been able to do much either, given the situation.
In summary, based on my experience, in many (not all) cases, employee failures are as much the fault of the employee as it is the fault of management and leadership within the same company. Only you can take an honest look at this and see what does and doesn't apply.
answered yesterday
code_dredd
1,123417
1,123417
+1, though (unless you know more than you've indicated) it may be misleading to say that in the case of the layoff, "There was no notice period; it was 'effective immediately'." When companies I've worked at have laid people off, they've paid those people "severance" equivalent to multiple weeks' salary. I think that's actually better than a notice period, but it can look worse to people who don't realize that such severance was paid.
– ruakh
21 hours ago
@ruakh Thanks. When we spoke to some of those affected, they confirmed they had received no notice period. It caught all of them by surprise. I wouldn't have said they received no notice period if I really didn't know what had happened.
– code_dredd
21 hours ago
I think you may have misunderstood my comment. I'm not challenging your claim that they received no notice; rather, I'm raising the possibility that they received severance pay. If they did receive severance pay, then it's misleading to say only that they received no notice.
– ruakh
21 hours ago
@ruakh I think receiving severance pay and receiving notice period are two separate things. For example, I've had friends receive both the notice period and severance pay afterwards. Therefore, I disagree with the claim that I'm being "misleading".
– code_dredd
21 hours ago
4
If they had gotten severance pay the thing would not be as onesided, because the employees were not simply let go but had a kind of compensation. Also I would agree, I'd prefer severance pay without notice period above notice period without severance. Getting both being the best, ofc.
– Philipp
19 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
+1, though (unless you know more than you've indicated) it may be misleading to say that in the case of the layoff, "There was no notice period; it was 'effective immediately'." When companies I've worked at have laid people off, they've paid those people "severance" equivalent to multiple weeks' salary. I think that's actually better than a notice period, but it can look worse to people who don't realize that such severance was paid.
– ruakh
21 hours ago
@ruakh Thanks. When we spoke to some of those affected, they confirmed they had received no notice period. It caught all of them by surprise. I wouldn't have said they received no notice period if I really didn't know what had happened.
– code_dredd
21 hours ago
I think you may have misunderstood my comment. I'm not challenging your claim that they received no notice; rather, I'm raising the possibility that they received severance pay. If they did receive severance pay, then it's misleading to say only that they received no notice.
– ruakh
21 hours ago
@ruakh I think receiving severance pay and receiving notice period are two separate things. For example, I've had friends receive both the notice period and severance pay afterwards. Therefore, I disagree with the claim that I'm being "misleading".
– code_dredd
21 hours ago
4
If they had gotten severance pay the thing would not be as onesided, because the employees were not simply let go but had a kind of compensation. Also I would agree, I'd prefer severance pay without notice period above notice period without severance. Getting both being the best, ofc.
– Philipp
19 hours ago
+1, though (unless you know more than you've indicated) it may be misleading to say that in the case of the layoff, "There was no notice period; it was 'effective immediately'." When companies I've worked at have laid people off, they've paid those people "severance" equivalent to multiple weeks' salary. I think that's actually better than a notice period, but it can look worse to people who don't realize that such severance was paid.
– ruakh
21 hours ago
+1, though (unless you know more than you've indicated) it may be misleading to say that in the case of the layoff, "There was no notice period; it was 'effective immediately'." When companies I've worked at have laid people off, they've paid those people "severance" equivalent to multiple weeks' salary. I think that's actually better than a notice period, but it can look worse to people who don't realize that such severance was paid.
– ruakh
21 hours ago
@ruakh Thanks. When we spoke to some of those affected, they confirmed they had received no notice period. It caught all of them by surprise. I wouldn't have said they received no notice period if I really didn't know what had happened.
– code_dredd
21 hours ago
@ruakh Thanks. When we spoke to some of those affected, they confirmed they had received no notice period. It caught all of them by surprise. I wouldn't have said they received no notice period if I really didn't know what had happened.
– code_dredd
21 hours ago
I think you may have misunderstood my comment. I'm not challenging your claim that they received no notice; rather, I'm raising the possibility that they received severance pay. If they did receive severance pay, then it's misleading to say only that they received no notice.
– ruakh
21 hours ago
I think you may have misunderstood my comment. I'm not challenging your claim that they received no notice; rather, I'm raising the possibility that they received severance pay. If they did receive severance pay, then it's misleading to say only that they received no notice.
– ruakh
21 hours ago
@ruakh I think receiving severance pay and receiving notice period are two separate things. For example, I've had friends receive both the notice period and severance pay afterwards. Therefore, I disagree with the claim that I'm being "misleading".
– code_dredd
21 hours ago
@ruakh I think receiving severance pay and receiving notice period are two separate things. For example, I've had friends receive both the notice period and severance pay afterwards. Therefore, I disagree with the claim that I'm being "misleading".
– code_dredd
21 hours ago
4
4
If they had gotten severance pay the thing would not be as onesided, because the employees were not simply let go but had a kind of compensation. Also I would agree, I'd prefer severance pay without notice period above notice period without severance. Getting both being the best, ofc.
– Philipp
19 hours ago
If they had gotten severance pay the thing would not be as onesided, because the employees were not simply let go but had a kind of compensation. Also I would agree, I'd prefer severance pay without notice period above notice period without severance. Getting both being the best, ofc.
– Philipp
19 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
up vote
9
down vote
Don't give them notice.
Give them a severance pay package that would be commensurate with the standard notice period.
You will not be doing them nor anyone else any favors in allowing them to continue.
It may seem harsh, but it is actually the kindest thing you can do for them. No one likes to be the "walking dead" on a job site. Also, involuntary terminations open the door for retaliation, especially as a developer.
You should have your sys admins ready to cut all their access the minute the door to the office closes. If possible, walk them out a side door so they don't have to do the "perp walk" out through their former colleagues.
In the tech field this is the common thing. Perhaps a combo of severance pay, with "work from home" call in by phone for information exchange.
– ivanivan
9 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
9
down vote
Don't give them notice.
Give them a severance pay package that would be commensurate with the standard notice period.
You will not be doing them nor anyone else any favors in allowing them to continue.
It may seem harsh, but it is actually the kindest thing you can do for them. No one likes to be the "walking dead" on a job site. Also, involuntary terminations open the door for retaliation, especially as a developer.
You should have your sys admins ready to cut all their access the minute the door to the office closes. If possible, walk them out a side door so they don't have to do the "perp walk" out through their former colleagues.
In the tech field this is the common thing. Perhaps a combo of severance pay, with "work from home" call in by phone for information exchange.
– ivanivan
9 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
9
down vote
up vote
9
down vote
Don't give them notice.
Give them a severance pay package that would be commensurate with the standard notice period.
You will not be doing them nor anyone else any favors in allowing them to continue.
It may seem harsh, but it is actually the kindest thing you can do for them. No one likes to be the "walking dead" on a job site. Also, involuntary terminations open the door for retaliation, especially as a developer.
You should have your sys admins ready to cut all their access the minute the door to the office closes. If possible, walk them out a side door so they don't have to do the "perp walk" out through their former colleagues.
Don't give them notice.
Give them a severance pay package that would be commensurate with the standard notice period.
You will not be doing them nor anyone else any favors in allowing them to continue.
It may seem harsh, but it is actually the kindest thing you can do for them. No one likes to be the "walking dead" on a job site. Also, involuntary terminations open the door for retaliation, especially as a developer.
You should have your sys admins ready to cut all their access the minute the door to the office closes. If possible, walk them out a side door so they don't have to do the "perp walk" out through their former colleagues.
answered 10 hours ago
Wesley Long
46.9k16102174
46.9k16102174
In the tech field this is the common thing. Perhaps a combo of severance pay, with "work from home" call in by phone for information exchange.
– ivanivan
9 hours ago
add a comment |
In the tech field this is the common thing. Perhaps a combo of severance pay, with "work from home" call in by phone for information exchange.
– ivanivan
9 hours ago
In the tech field this is the common thing. Perhaps a combo of severance pay, with "work from home" call in by phone for information exchange.
– ivanivan
9 hours ago
In the tech field this is the common thing. Perhaps a combo of severance pay, with "work from home" call in by phone for information exchange.
– ivanivan
9 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
Creating this answer since I don't see anyone considering the probation period.
I work for a Portuguese company and here it is customary that the first 3 contracts have a fixed end date (6 or 12 month contracts). We are a tech support company and are struggling getting people that speak the languages we provide support for. There are incentives of 1000€ if you bring in people speaking a certain language, we are struggling to meet KPI's at times, we renew contracts of people that just aren't that good.... Even with all these signs, people due for a renewal stress that their contract might not be renewed and there's always a bit of relief when they get the email saying their contract is ready to be signed at HR. I wrote all this to tell you that your colleague should know well enough what the consequences can be at the end of his probation.
Your team member was on probation and got a PIP without showing signs of improvement. They should not be surprised when you terminate the contract.
Since you ask how to show a team member you are serious, I think you made a mistake by not having an official PIP started. Putting stuff to paper with clear consequences will always have more weight.
How to decide when enough is enough? When there's been no improvement for some time and no drive to improve. This is what you have the PIP for.
Concerning the ethics at play, it might be good to read how Netflix views this:
We model ourselves on being a team, not a family. A family is about unconditional love, despite your siblings’ unusual behavior. A dream team is about pushing yourself to be the best teammate you can be, caring intensely about your teammates, and knowing that you may not be on the team forever. Source
I also follow The Wandering Dev Manager's answer in that your boss is only asking you how much time is needed to minimize the impact to your team.
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
Creating this answer since I don't see anyone considering the probation period.
I work for a Portuguese company and here it is customary that the first 3 contracts have a fixed end date (6 or 12 month contracts). We are a tech support company and are struggling getting people that speak the languages we provide support for. There are incentives of 1000€ if you bring in people speaking a certain language, we are struggling to meet KPI's at times, we renew contracts of people that just aren't that good.... Even with all these signs, people due for a renewal stress that their contract might not be renewed and there's always a bit of relief when they get the email saying their contract is ready to be signed at HR. I wrote all this to tell you that your colleague should know well enough what the consequences can be at the end of his probation.
Your team member was on probation and got a PIP without showing signs of improvement. They should not be surprised when you terminate the contract.
Since you ask how to show a team member you are serious, I think you made a mistake by not having an official PIP started. Putting stuff to paper with clear consequences will always have more weight.
How to decide when enough is enough? When there's been no improvement for some time and no drive to improve. This is what you have the PIP for.
Concerning the ethics at play, it might be good to read how Netflix views this:
We model ourselves on being a team, not a family. A family is about unconditional love, despite your siblings’ unusual behavior. A dream team is about pushing yourself to be the best teammate you can be, caring intensely about your teammates, and knowing that you may not be on the team forever. Source
I also follow The Wandering Dev Manager's answer in that your boss is only asking you how much time is needed to minimize the impact to your team.
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
Creating this answer since I don't see anyone considering the probation period.
I work for a Portuguese company and here it is customary that the first 3 contracts have a fixed end date (6 or 12 month contracts). We are a tech support company and are struggling getting people that speak the languages we provide support for. There are incentives of 1000€ if you bring in people speaking a certain language, we are struggling to meet KPI's at times, we renew contracts of people that just aren't that good.... Even with all these signs, people due for a renewal stress that their contract might not be renewed and there's always a bit of relief when they get the email saying their contract is ready to be signed at HR. I wrote all this to tell you that your colleague should know well enough what the consequences can be at the end of his probation.
Your team member was on probation and got a PIP without showing signs of improvement. They should not be surprised when you terminate the contract.
Since you ask how to show a team member you are serious, I think you made a mistake by not having an official PIP started. Putting stuff to paper with clear consequences will always have more weight.
How to decide when enough is enough? When there's been no improvement for some time and no drive to improve. This is what you have the PIP for.
Concerning the ethics at play, it might be good to read how Netflix views this:
We model ourselves on being a team, not a family. A family is about unconditional love, despite your siblings’ unusual behavior. A dream team is about pushing yourself to be the best teammate you can be, caring intensely about your teammates, and knowing that you may not be on the team forever. Source
I also follow The Wandering Dev Manager's answer in that your boss is only asking you how much time is needed to minimize the impact to your team.
Creating this answer since I don't see anyone considering the probation period.
I work for a Portuguese company and here it is customary that the first 3 contracts have a fixed end date (6 or 12 month contracts). We are a tech support company and are struggling getting people that speak the languages we provide support for. There are incentives of 1000€ if you bring in people speaking a certain language, we are struggling to meet KPI's at times, we renew contracts of people that just aren't that good.... Even with all these signs, people due for a renewal stress that their contract might not be renewed and there's always a bit of relief when they get the email saying their contract is ready to be signed at HR. I wrote all this to tell you that your colleague should know well enough what the consequences can be at the end of his probation.
Your team member was on probation and got a PIP without showing signs of improvement. They should not be surprised when you terminate the contract.
Since you ask how to show a team member you are serious, I think you made a mistake by not having an official PIP started. Putting stuff to paper with clear consequences will always have more weight.
How to decide when enough is enough? When there's been no improvement for some time and no drive to improve. This is what you have the PIP for.
Concerning the ethics at play, it might be good to read how Netflix views this:
We model ourselves on being a team, not a family. A family is about unconditional love, despite your siblings’ unusual behavior. A dream team is about pushing yourself to be the best teammate you can be, caring intensely about your teammates, and knowing that you may not be on the team forever. Source
I also follow The Wandering Dev Manager's answer in that your boss is only asking you how much time is needed to minimize the impact to your team.
answered 16 hours ago
LVDV
24727
24727
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
-1
down vote
One factor to consider: is there a risk of this individual doing some kind of active harm to the organization or team (e.g. spreading malicious rumors, committing acts of vandalism or property damage, causing subtle harm to the system, etc.) during the notice period?
In terms of the effect on the morale of the rest of the team: I'm guessing that other people in your team have already figured out that the person is incompetent, especially if they're reporting virtually no progress on any task during stand-ups and aren't completing tasks. That being said, keeping this individual around could actually hurt morale. I worked at a company where certain employees had a reputation for not doing anything useful, and it was bad for morale because it made it look like management didn't care whether you performed well or not.
Based on what you've stated, it also sounds like you've had multiple discussions with the individual, including the informal PIP. Given that and their subsequent apparent lack of effort to improve, the individual shouldn't be surprised that they were fired. Admittedly, the timing (December) is at least mildly unfortunate, but that's kind of their own fault.
For future reference, it may have been better if you had formally documented his poor performance (e.g. the PIP and his subsequent lack of improvement) and possibly given an "official" length for his PIP (i.e. he has to meet specific goals within, for example, a month). That's probably not as big of a deal in this case, though, given that the employee is still in their probation period, so you really aren't obligated to do so.
add a comment |
up vote
-1
down vote
One factor to consider: is there a risk of this individual doing some kind of active harm to the organization or team (e.g. spreading malicious rumors, committing acts of vandalism or property damage, causing subtle harm to the system, etc.) during the notice period?
In terms of the effect on the morale of the rest of the team: I'm guessing that other people in your team have already figured out that the person is incompetent, especially if they're reporting virtually no progress on any task during stand-ups and aren't completing tasks. That being said, keeping this individual around could actually hurt morale. I worked at a company where certain employees had a reputation for not doing anything useful, and it was bad for morale because it made it look like management didn't care whether you performed well or not.
Based on what you've stated, it also sounds like you've had multiple discussions with the individual, including the informal PIP. Given that and their subsequent apparent lack of effort to improve, the individual shouldn't be surprised that they were fired. Admittedly, the timing (December) is at least mildly unfortunate, but that's kind of their own fault.
For future reference, it may have been better if you had formally documented his poor performance (e.g. the PIP and his subsequent lack of improvement) and possibly given an "official" length for his PIP (i.e. he has to meet specific goals within, for example, a month). That's probably not as big of a deal in this case, though, given that the employee is still in their probation period, so you really aren't obligated to do so.
add a comment |
up vote
-1
down vote
up vote
-1
down vote
One factor to consider: is there a risk of this individual doing some kind of active harm to the organization or team (e.g. spreading malicious rumors, committing acts of vandalism or property damage, causing subtle harm to the system, etc.) during the notice period?
In terms of the effect on the morale of the rest of the team: I'm guessing that other people in your team have already figured out that the person is incompetent, especially if they're reporting virtually no progress on any task during stand-ups and aren't completing tasks. That being said, keeping this individual around could actually hurt morale. I worked at a company where certain employees had a reputation for not doing anything useful, and it was bad for morale because it made it look like management didn't care whether you performed well or not.
Based on what you've stated, it also sounds like you've had multiple discussions with the individual, including the informal PIP. Given that and their subsequent apparent lack of effort to improve, the individual shouldn't be surprised that they were fired. Admittedly, the timing (December) is at least mildly unfortunate, but that's kind of their own fault.
For future reference, it may have been better if you had formally documented his poor performance (e.g. the PIP and his subsequent lack of improvement) and possibly given an "official" length for his PIP (i.e. he has to meet specific goals within, for example, a month). That's probably not as big of a deal in this case, though, given that the employee is still in their probation period, so you really aren't obligated to do so.
One factor to consider: is there a risk of this individual doing some kind of active harm to the organization or team (e.g. spreading malicious rumors, committing acts of vandalism or property damage, causing subtle harm to the system, etc.) during the notice period?
In terms of the effect on the morale of the rest of the team: I'm guessing that other people in your team have already figured out that the person is incompetent, especially if they're reporting virtually no progress on any task during stand-ups and aren't completing tasks. That being said, keeping this individual around could actually hurt morale. I worked at a company where certain employees had a reputation for not doing anything useful, and it was bad for morale because it made it look like management didn't care whether you performed well or not.
Based on what you've stated, it also sounds like you've had multiple discussions with the individual, including the informal PIP. Given that and their subsequent apparent lack of effort to improve, the individual shouldn't be surprised that they were fired. Admittedly, the timing (December) is at least mildly unfortunate, but that's kind of their own fault.
For future reference, it may have been better if you had formally documented his poor performance (e.g. the PIP and his subsequent lack of improvement) and possibly given an "official" length for his PIP (i.e. he has to meet specific goals within, for example, a month). That's probably not as big of a deal in this case, though, given that the employee is still in their probation period, so you really aren't obligated to do so.
edited 7 hours ago
answered 7 hours ago
EJoshuaS
248113
248113
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
-28
down vote
- When you terminate a contract, you have to make it effective immediately. No notice period under any circumstance. Please don’t feel sorry, firing someone is a sign of your power. The more you do the more you are good at, the more you are happy, and the better team lead you are. Donald Trump is a good example.
- You had face to face discussion. Not much else you could do.
- As a team lead you fire anyone you personally don’t like, working performance is a key factor. Anytime you see someone not reporting good progress repeatedly in daily meetings, you give a warning letter. No further improvement. It’s over.
You shouldn’t feel bad, please watch Donald Trump old TV shows. “You’re fired”
20
If you feel that reality TV shows actually reflect reality, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you
– Peter M
yesterday
6
Ha Ha! Trump doesn't fire people in the WH (Kelly does it), and didn't even decide in the Apprentice - huffingtonpost.ca/entry/…
– The Wandering Dev Manager
yesterday
30
However what troubles the most about your answer is that implies you should gain pleasure from firing someone (Power/Good/Happy) without considering the person that is fired. IMHO this lacks empathy and is bordering on being cruel. Regardless of the qualities of the person being fired you are screwing them over. Thus I feel they deserve a modicum of empathy for what you are putting them through.
– Peter M
yesterday
14
Yeah agree with @PeterM. If the firing was for destructive behavior that'd be one thing. Removing someone incompetent may bring relief but should be handled in a professional way. This is why the Trump example is so bad, not just that it's false, but also how ignorant the act actually is.
– The Wandering Dev Manager
yesterday
8
The more people you fire, the better team lead you are? Seriously? Please put me in touch with your team lead!
– Dawood ibn Kareem
yesterday
|
show 9 more comments
up vote
-28
down vote
- When you terminate a contract, you have to make it effective immediately. No notice period under any circumstance. Please don’t feel sorry, firing someone is a sign of your power. The more you do the more you are good at, the more you are happy, and the better team lead you are. Donald Trump is a good example.
- You had face to face discussion. Not much else you could do.
- As a team lead you fire anyone you personally don’t like, working performance is a key factor. Anytime you see someone not reporting good progress repeatedly in daily meetings, you give a warning letter. No further improvement. It’s over.
You shouldn’t feel bad, please watch Donald Trump old TV shows. “You’re fired”
20
If you feel that reality TV shows actually reflect reality, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you
– Peter M
yesterday
6
Ha Ha! Trump doesn't fire people in the WH (Kelly does it), and didn't even decide in the Apprentice - huffingtonpost.ca/entry/…
– The Wandering Dev Manager
yesterday
30
However what troubles the most about your answer is that implies you should gain pleasure from firing someone (Power/Good/Happy) without considering the person that is fired. IMHO this lacks empathy and is bordering on being cruel. Regardless of the qualities of the person being fired you are screwing them over. Thus I feel they deserve a modicum of empathy for what you are putting them through.
– Peter M
yesterday
14
Yeah agree with @PeterM. If the firing was for destructive behavior that'd be one thing. Removing someone incompetent may bring relief but should be handled in a professional way. This is why the Trump example is so bad, not just that it's false, but also how ignorant the act actually is.
– The Wandering Dev Manager
yesterday
8
The more people you fire, the better team lead you are? Seriously? Please put me in touch with your team lead!
– Dawood ibn Kareem
yesterday
|
show 9 more comments
up vote
-28
down vote
up vote
-28
down vote
- When you terminate a contract, you have to make it effective immediately. No notice period under any circumstance. Please don’t feel sorry, firing someone is a sign of your power. The more you do the more you are good at, the more you are happy, and the better team lead you are. Donald Trump is a good example.
- You had face to face discussion. Not much else you could do.
- As a team lead you fire anyone you personally don’t like, working performance is a key factor. Anytime you see someone not reporting good progress repeatedly in daily meetings, you give a warning letter. No further improvement. It’s over.
You shouldn’t feel bad, please watch Donald Trump old TV shows. “You’re fired”
- When you terminate a contract, you have to make it effective immediately. No notice period under any circumstance. Please don’t feel sorry, firing someone is a sign of your power. The more you do the more you are good at, the more you are happy, and the better team lead you are. Donald Trump is a good example.
- You had face to face discussion. Not much else you could do.
- As a team lead you fire anyone you personally don’t like, working performance is a key factor. Anytime you see someone not reporting good progress repeatedly in daily meetings, you give a warning letter. No further improvement. It’s over.
You shouldn’t feel bad, please watch Donald Trump old TV shows. “You’re fired”
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
SmallChess
1,1153621
1,1153621
20
If you feel that reality TV shows actually reflect reality, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you
– Peter M
yesterday
6
Ha Ha! Trump doesn't fire people in the WH (Kelly does it), and didn't even decide in the Apprentice - huffingtonpost.ca/entry/…
– The Wandering Dev Manager
yesterday
30
However what troubles the most about your answer is that implies you should gain pleasure from firing someone (Power/Good/Happy) without considering the person that is fired. IMHO this lacks empathy and is bordering on being cruel. Regardless of the qualities of the person being fired you are screwing them over. Thus I feel they deserve a modicum of empathy for what you are putting them through.
– Peter M
yesterday
14
Yeah agree with @PeterM. If the firing was for destructive behavior that'd be one thing. Removing someone incompetent may bring relief but should be handled in a professional way. This is why the Trump example is so bad, not just that it's false, but also how ignorant the act actually is.
– The Wandering Dev Manager
yesterday
8
The more people you fire, the better team lead you are? Seriously? Please put me in touch with your team lead!
– Dawood ibn Kareem
yesterday
|
show 9 more comments
20
If you feel that reality TV shows actually reflect reality, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you
– Peter M
yesterday
6
Ha Ha! Trump doesn't fire people in the WH (Kelly does it), and didn't even decide in the Apprentice - huffingtonpost.ca/entry/…
– The Wandering Dev Manager
yesterday
30
However what troubles the most about your answer is that implies you should gain pleasure from firing someone (Power/Good/Happy) without considering the person that is fired. IMHO this lacks empathy and is bordering on being cruel. Regardless of the qualities of the person being fired you are screwing them over. Thus I feel they deserve a modicum of empathy for what you are putting them through.
– Peter M
yesterday
14
Yeah agree with @PeterM. If the firing was for destructive behavior that'd be one thing. Removing someone incompetent may bring relief but should be handled in a professional way. This is why the Trump example is so bad, not just that it's false, but also how ignorant the act actually is.
– The Wandering Dev Manager
yesterday
8
The more people you fire, the better team lead you are? Seriously? Please put me in touch with your team lead!
– Dawood ibn Kareem
yesterday
20
20
If you feel that reality TV shows actually reflect reality, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you
– Peter M
yesterday
If you feel that reality TV shows actually reflect reality, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you
– Peter M
yesterday
6
6
Ha Ha! Trump doesn't fire people in the WH (Kelly does it), and didn't even decide in the Apprentice - huffingtonpost.ca/entry/…
– The Wandering Dev Manager
yesterday
Ha Ha! Trump doesn't fire people in the WH (Kelly does it), and didn't even decide in the Apprentice - huffingtonpost.ca/entry/…
– The Wandering Dev Manager
yesterday
30
30
However what troubles the most about your answer is that implies you should gain pleasure from firing someone (Power/Good/Happy) without considering the person that is fired. IMHO this lacks empathy and is bordering on being cruel. Regardless of the qualities of the person being fired you are screwing them over. Thus I feel they deserve a modicum of empathy for what you are putting them through.
– Peter M
yesterday
However what troubles the most about your answer is that implies you should gain pleasure from firing someone (Power/Good/Happy) without considering the person that is fired. IMHO this lacks empathy and is bordering on being cruel. Regardless of the qualities of the person being fired you are screwing them over. Thus I feel they deserve a modicum of empathy for what you are putting them through.
– Peter M
yesterday
14
14
Yeah agree with @PeterM. If the firing was for destructive behavior that'd be one thing. Removing someone incompetent may bring relief but should be handled in a professional way. This is why the Trump example is so bad, not just that it's false, but also how ignorant the act actually is.
– The Wandering Dev Manager
yesterday
Yeah agree with @PeterM. If the firing was for destructive behavior that'd be one thing. Removing someone incompetent may bring relief but should be handled in a professional way. This is why the Trump example is so bad, not just that it's false, but also how ignorant the act actually is.
– The Wandering Dev Manager
yesterday
8
8
The more people you fire, the better team lead you are? Seriously? Please put me in touch with your team lead!
– Dawood ibn Kareem
yesterday
The more people you fire, the better team lead you are? Seriously? Please put me in touch with your team lead!
– Dawood ibn Kareem
yesterday
|
show 9 more comments
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give him a notice until 01.01.19 the employee will most properly not come to work anyway. Most properly he will send a sick notice from a doctor. Even if he was not a good employee, just be kind and let him stay after new year
– undefined
12 hours ago
If you want to get people to take improving themselves seriously, don't call it a "performance improvement plan", or anything similar -- that's pretty common shorthand for "We want to fire you, but we want to document that it's because you're shit at your job, and not for any of the many illegal reasons, so you can't sue us." Instead, invite them to go through these curated courses for self-education, before you put them on PIP.
– Nic Hartley
4 hours ago